Are pedomorphic (infantile) features desirable?

[pacificrim]

From what I know so far, there are some races (mongoloids and some negroids) who exhibit more "child-like" or infantile features such as rounded faces, lack of body and facial hair etc., more so than the caucasoids.

I've been wondering whether such features are desirable traits in terms of physical appearance and beauty. On one hand, its said that pedomorphisis is meant to make women more "beautiful" - a "cute", graceful, youthful beauty. On the other hand, I've also noticed that infantile-looking people can be also seen as "ugly" and "babyfaced".

Now, being an asian teen myself ("sinid"), I can say from experience that I'm apparently more "pedomorphic"-looking (not to a large extent though, i think) than the average white guy. For me, its always frustrating to have a Westerner underestimate my age. Throughout my life, I've always been told I look young. Many people often at first glance find that I don't look my real age- 17. When I hang out with my European or Middle-eastern friends (who've got more robust physical appearance), by comparison, people assume I've the younger, even when its the other way around. I don't really show signs of facial hair and i'm quite short and lightweight. All thanks to my "mongoloid" genes.

Also, pedomorphic physical traits often influence a person's first impression. In social situations, a "baby-face" appearance may connote "immaturity". I've also heard that "baby-faced" people are less likely to be suspect by police for committing crimes, since inner personal bias comes in ("chubby, round-faced people are nice and innocent-looking") ;D

So, I've been wondering, overall, is a young-ish , infantile appearance more so desirable or undesirable, especially in today's society?

[CooCooCachoo]

Are pedomorphic features desirable?


....Yes.



...To pedophiles.

[pacificrim]

coocoocachoo said:

Are pedomorphic features desirable?


....Yes.



...To pedophiles.

So you're implying that people who are attracted to Asian features are pedophiles?

[Hairless]

When judging the sexual attractiveness of men, I have to admit that I prefer a "sexually mature" appearance rather than a pedomorphic one. Many of the males my friends drool over just appear pre-pubescent to me. However, I see a LOT of very attractive Asian men who are not pedomorphic.

I know a lot of women in their 30s and 40s (Asians) who are still acting cutsey and wearing children's clothing (literally!!!!) and have children's toys dangling from their purses. In addition to physically resembling young children they act like young children. So I find that odd and can't take them seriously in a professional sense. For example, I know an extremely petite (most people would say midget, although I am not sure that is a polite term) that is about a decade older than me and exhibits the characteristics above. When we are alone she speaks harshly about everything but when other people (especially males and those in authority) come around she has this very syrupy act that is hard for me to stand. "I'm small and need help, O strong one".... On the other hand there are pedomorphic women who don't act that way and I respect them a lot more.

So there is both a physical and behavioral component, both of which I find unattractive.

[CooCooCachoo]

pacificrim said:

coocoocachoo said:

Are pedomorphic features desirable?


....Yes.



...To pedophiles.

So you're implying that people who are attracted to Asian features are pedophiles?

I've heard it said that the reason White men dig on Asian chicks is because it's the closest thing they can get to a 10 year old boy.

To add a new layer of insecurity, I've heard that Grey Aliens are a distorted approximation of Asian features. ...Like the way some people feel when they're looking at an East Asian.

[pacificrim]

foreigner said:

mufaza said:

for a man, an older look, for a woman, a "younger". but you know, it works better with the same race as you. for example a asian woman may find you very manly, while a non asian woman would find you "infantile".

angular, rough are manly traits, all men have this, it doesnt matter if your indian, swedish, japanese, etc.

It also depends on the culture. In many (traditional) East Asian cultures and subcultures men have to be "cute" to be adored by females. So pedomorphic men with a soft character and soft features a prefered there. Their cultures tend to be matrifocal. Some have even preserved the custom of matrilocality.

Do eastern asians really have a matrifocal society? I thought it was the other way around. In ancient china and japan, like other places, men were still more dominant than women. Wouldn't it be the women that are selected and picked out as the "softer" ones. IN fact, that's why we have the stereotype of the "geisha" or the "subservient" asian woman which so many people hate.

[Hairless]

pacificrim said:

foreigner said:

It also depends on the culture. In many (traditional) East Asian cultures and subcultures men have to be "cute" to be adored by females. So pedomorphic men with a soft character and soft features a prefered there. Their cultures tend to be matrifocal. Some have even preserved the custom of matrilocality.

Do eastern asians really have a matrifocal society? I thought it was the other way around. In ancient china and japan, like other places, men were still more dominant than women. Wouldn't it be the women that are selected and picked out as the "softer" ones. IN fact, that's why we have the stereotype of the "geisha" or the "subservient" asian woman which so many people hate.

I have a hard time accepting the matrifocal claim as well. Exactly where and when was that practiced?

[Hairless]

foreigner said:

pacificrim said:

Do eastern asians really have a matrifocal society? I thought it was the other way around. In ancient china and japan, like other places, men were still more dominant than women. Wouldn't it be the women that are selected and picked out as the "softer" ones. IN fact, that's why we have the stereotype of the "geisha" or the "subservient" asian woman which so many people hate.

Japan and Korea are only superficially patriarchal (regarding public institutions, politics etc). According to the authors whose works I've read, females there hold back in public, but often dominate at home. Certain tribals on the Philippines are even still openly matrifocal.

It is debated to which degree Han Chinese are matrifocal. Fact is that a patriarchal fashion spread from north to south with Confucianism. Apparently, only few books and articles are published about this topic because of chauvinistic fears. Generally, southern and coastal Han are assumed to be more matrifocal than northerners.

The paradox of East Asian societies is caused by gender division and the resulting different cultures of the genders. In the patriarchal parts of East Asia marriage is required when someone wants to raise his or her social status. So most people there want to marry first of all, the quality of the spouse is relatively less important.

Nevertheless, the female, who has been taught to be soft, desires a soft partner. But patriarchs tend to encourage boys to become not so soft. Finally, most females end up with a not so soft husband because there are not enough softies for all females. Moreover, marriage was still planned without the consent of the bride only a few generations ago. Therefore, there is no elaborated culture of choosing a spouse in most East Asian cultures today.

Matrifocality does not mean that young men and boys wouldn't have any privileges. In almost all cultures it is rather tolerated when a boy does not want to marry, while the veto of a bride is often not at all tolerated. A culture is (more or less) matrifocal when the mothers have certain cultural privileges which men, boys and girls do not have. A culture is remarkably matrifocal when a significant amount of mothers is given the realistic chance to decide on males' activities in everyday life, especially inside of the household. Also, a culture is matrifocal when males are expected by society to have motherly traits: e.g. the willingness to sacrifice oneself in Japanese and Korean cultures.

I have a hard time accepting the matrifocal claim as well.

Matrifocality is, as above said, a tendentially domestic practice. So it isn't strongly visible to the public, especially not to tourists and other foreigners. Many cultures have one or the other matrifocal feature. So matrifocality as such isn't anything extremely unusual. It's rather the degree of matrifocality which is remarkable or not. Cultures which seem to "lack" matrifocality are either patrifocal or they focus more on the community (e.g. clan) as a whole instead of on a parent.

For a comparison: people from whom I wouldn't expect much matrifocality generally live in communities where aggression plays a much bigger role than motherly instincts. Societies which accept such communities are becoming rare around the world. However, IMO they died out very early in many parts of East Asia.

I'm not sure I understand the definition of matrifocal as you use it. Can you be more specific? I live in a culture that is strongly influenced by the Japanese and I have many, many friends from Japan who actively complain about how it is to be a woman there. From growing up in a traditional Chinese household I can also say the same for Chinese, unless there is a huge regional variation that I don't know about. In my experience, both are strongly male dominated, both inside and out of the home. Maybe there is some other definition you are getting at that I did not glean from your posting?

[Batrus]

To my knowledge, there's never been a matriofocal society.

[Digenes]

First of all i`ll have to agree with Mufaza (what has become of his post, btw?) that it has to do with race, yours being known for some lower level of sexual dimorphism. You might actually be less concerned about the issue if you lived amongst individuals of your race, and did not have to encounter and probably enter into competition with males in a multi-racial society.

From my everyday experience and observation, I think it is unsafe to bring forth general conclusions on what matters more and what less to women, as for appearance. Manly traits is certainly an important factor to generate attraction but so are other factors as well, like symmetry of facial features or the overall bodily constitution.
The continuous -through the ages- presence of more or less pedomorphic males in all races might be an indication that masculinity has not always been of primary importance for women, at least not for a considerable number of them; whether male pedomorphism is the outcome of natural selection generated by ancient matriarchal or matrifocal societies, as the interesting discussion above implies, or it is due to other reasons...
And in my opinion, given the state of things in our highly complicated, fast-evolving societies, i don`t think it is safe either to draw conclusions for the future out of the past about the role of masculinity, pedomorphism, in general of any -hereditary or acquired- trait governing or affecting peoples interaction.

Though i may be a bit out of subject, i would like to add as a consequent implication of my thoughts that the overall appearance is just one of various criteria by which women pick partners, as commonly known. It is important but it`s not always the decisive one, while for us guys it is what matters the most, in combination with age.
Thus, in case all this is out of some kind of personal insecurity, you might have to start thinking positive and consider what advantages you may have over the other guys... For example, your writing indicates an intelligent, educated and considerably mature person (given the fact that you`re only 17); all these are well estimated by women, as far as i know and as you may be already aware of...

Various kinds of social attributes in general, are also highly estimated by women, like owning a MERCEDES SL-CLASS for example... ;D (unless you`re into BMWs... )
(It`s commonly said among guys here in Greece that the driver`s seat of a MERCEDES-BENZ roadster or cabrio is the perfect machine to make someone look fit, young, masculine enough to have any chick he wants... )