|
Post by Educate Me on Oct 18, 2005 17:58:46 GMT -5
I find this fear of Mexicans in the american right absolutely hilarious.
This guys are basically racists, they really think, we shouldnt let mexicans in, because these short brown guys from the south are inherently inferior (they have underwent less selection than ourselves, have lower iqs, will turn our country into a third world shithole and all the bell curve stuff) + they dont even speak english nor look up to protestant anglo saxon culture.
Obviously they cant say this openly without looking like racists, I find this debate to be quite dishonest. Anyway, I think they are fighting a lost fight.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 18, 2005 19:36:27 GMT -5
The American Renaissance crowd (Jared Taylor etc) does say those things quite openly. Would it be more honest to say that the millions of Mexicans crossing their borders are a blessing? I´m sure you are more confortable with that flood of Mexicans going North than South to your dear Argentina.
|
|
|
Post by Educate Me on Oct 18, 2005 19:54:32 GMT -5
Well, there are 38 million Argentines in Argentina , and we used to have around 6 million illegal immigrants living here too (Paraguayans and Bolivians), maybe more, 6 millions fore sure, when our currency was pegged to the Dollar. Percentage wise that is worse than in the USA methinks, anyway, half of them moved out of Argentina when we devaluated our currency three years ago.
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 18, 2005 19:57:42 GMT -5
well as one of these short brown people with low iq i am in favour of closing borders for these reasons 1)i am a store owner and pay taxes, illegals park themselves in front of my store and sell same merchendize for less (because they can afford to do so,half of it is prolly stolen anyway) 2) every time some ileagal comes here with their 89 kids it costs us money 3) the fact that they dont pay taxes means that they dont contribute they make their money and send it back home, this causes inflation 4) they cost the jobs of people because they can get paid less than minimum 5) they dont intend to integrate thats the main problem they live in their hoods never speaking english and so never learn it,in fact my own mom is guilty of this tho she tries,my aunt and dad however are not as they are fluent(altho with accent) and all are american citezens this from me isnt racial as i myself am hispanic like i said this isnt racial as i am hispanic and my own dad came in here as a boat person but he assimilated
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 18, 2005 20:00:19 GMT -5
Well, there are 38 million Argentines in Argentina , and we used to have around 6 million illegal immigrants living here too (Paraguayans and Bolivians), maybe more, 6 millions fore sure, when our currency was pegged to the Dollar. Percentage wise that is worse than in the USA methinks, anyway, half of them moved out of Argentina when we devaluated our currency three years ago. How do you feel about these illegals? If you didn´t want their presence in your country, why should Americans accept their illegals?
|
|
|
Post by Educate Me on Oct 18, 2005 20:31:16 GMT -5
I dont have a problem with them not wanting Mexicans in their country, I just dont like how they treat their southern neighbours as if they were lesser hominids.
Have non biological reasons, geographical, historic, cultural etc, for explaining the wealth of nations, lost all popularity in the USA, or this people are fringe right wingers?
And maybe I misuderstood the articles, but I thought the debate was about how to convey "the openly racist message" in the most effective manner, to a not racist white majority. For example by grounding it in America´s founding principles, instead of the "low iq" of the brown people.
Call me tree hugging liberal, lefty, indigenista, whatever.
The American Renaissance crowd (I didnt know they had a name!) remind me of Agrippa, he always talks about Eugenics ( that word sounds good when alone or just as an abstract concept) , but Agrippa never talks about forced sterilizations.
Now there are not many immigrants, since the crisis, and the devaluation of the currency, when the peso was like a dollar they would come here, to work and send dollars to their families or to buy a house in their countries, no they no longer can do that so they left.
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 18, 2005 20:53:54 GMT -5
I dont have a problem with them not wanting Mexicans in their country, I just dont like how they treat their southern neighbours as if they were lesser hominids. Have non biological reasons, geographical, historic, cultural etc, for explaining the wealth of nations, lost all popularity in the USA, or this people are fringe right wingers? And maybe I misuderstood the articles, but I thought the debate was about how to convey "the openly racist message" in the most effective manner, to a not racist white majority. For example by grounding it in America´s founding principles, instead of the "low iq" of the brown people. Call me tree hugging liberal, lefty, indigenista, whatever. The American Renaissance crowd (I didnt know they had a name!) remind me of Agrippa, he always talks about Eugenics ( that word sounds good when alone or just as an abstract concept) , but Agrippa never talks about forced sterilizations. Now there are not many immigrants, since the crisis, and the devaluation of the currency, when the peso was like a dollar they would come here, to work and send dollars to their families or to buy a house in their countries, no they no longer can do that so they left. Exactamente eso es lo que estava diciendo yo,since they send back the money to their home countries they dont contribute they inderectly caus inflation since the money doesnt circulate
|
|
|
Post by Melnorme on Oct 18, 2005 21:34:58 GMT -5
I think an important thing to realize about the US hard right's views on immigration, is that Mexican immigration seems to them like the creation of a new ghetto-African-American-style underclass. It's like adding insult to injury for them. "Oh no, not AGAIN!"
I ( personally ) think the US should deal harshly with illegal immigrants, simply because it's Not Good For The World when its greatest superpower has flimsy, sieve-like borders. The future of legal immigration is the real issue here though...
|
|
|
Post by nockwasright on Oct 19, 2005 3:52:31 GMT -5
What about social classes? Where did that myth go, Nock? Do you believe that the individual is the only reality? Eheh. No. Nation, Class, Ethnicity (and maybe Race) exist and are powerful concepts to explain human history. When I talk about myth I refer to that emotional attachment and identification with a group or/and its symbols that makes an individual "root for" his group, be proud or ashamed of what members of his group do or did, and feel like what happens to the group somewhat happens to him too. This is simply not true, thus is believed with an act of faith. Tell me a rational reason why you should feel proud for what Cervantes did, or why you should be sadder if a Spaniards dies than if a Chinese dies or support Spain national team instead of Russia's (I do all those things too btw, these myths spice up our lives). Such myths of nation and then race, besides being not rational, are not even natural, as its "natural" only the identification with family (for which there is a genetic justification), but recent and cultural, and this is proved by the great effort by the interested entities in keeping the myths alive. The states always spent money and energy in parades, flags, ethnocentric schools, fancy uniforms etc. to promote the identification of any individual with an infinite mass of unknown and for great part no more living people. Is such identification was natural and rational there would be no such effort. There's no effort to convince people to have sex or go to the seaside in summer. There's no need of anthems, schools, speeches, rites ... Also the bodies which live on the class differences, as political parties, spend their well stolen money in foistering the class conscience which is the identification with class, hence the class myth. All this is necessary to tell to a soldiar that he has to put his life at risk to save a filling station that may come useful for the Nation, while if he had to act only on rational lines it would be quite clear that Nation is made of people who are as far away from him than anyone else, Nation will disappear as a whole from his universe when he dies, if he had been born in the Nation's enemy he would be in his place, hence screw the Nation and run.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 19, 2005 4:42:01 GMT -5
I dont have a problem with them not wanting Mexicans in their country, I just dont like how they treat their southern neighbours as if they were lesser hominids. Hey, Mexicans seem to like that treatment, since they flock to the USA! I´m sure Mexican upper classes treat them even worse, or else they would´t be leaving. You do have a point here:come to think of it, a sovereign nation needs to excuses to cut the flow of inmigration. Edu, I´m not sure whether you mean Sailer ( www.vdare.com or American Renaissance www.amren.com as the fringe right. Both magazines rely on biological and IQ arguments to acertain extent. Forced sterilizations are probably only a small part of eugenics, contrary to popular perceptions. They possibly have more in mind genetic screening and other preventive measures.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 19, 2005 4:56:34 GMT -5
What about social classes? Where did that myth go, Nock? Do you believe that the individual is the only reality? Eheh. No. Nation, Class, Ethnicity (and maybe Race) exist and are powerful concepts to explain human history. When I talk about myth I refer to that emotional attachment and identification with a group or/and its symbols that makes an individual "root for" his group, be proud or ashamed of what members of his group do or did, and feel like what happens to the group somewhat happens to him too. This is simply not true, thus is believed with an act of faith. Tell me a rational reason why you should feel proud for what Cervantes did, or why you should be sadder if a Spaniards dies than if a Chinese dies or support Spain national team instead of Russia's (I do all those things too btw, these myths spice up our lives). Such myths of nation and then race, besides being not rational, are not even natural, as its "natural" only the identification with family (for which there is a genetic justification), but recent and cultural, and this is proved by the great effort by the interested entities in keeping the myths alive. The states always spent money and energy in parades, flags, ethnocentric schools, fancy uniforms etc. to promote the identification of any individual with an infinite mass of unknown and for great part no more living people. Is such identification was natural and rational there would be no such effort. There's no effort to convince people to have sex or go to the seaside in summer. There's no need of anthems, schools, speeches, rites ... Also the bodies which live on the class differences, as political parties, spend their well stolen money in foistering the class conscience which is the identification with class, hence the class myth. All this is necessary to tell to a soldiar that he has to put his life at risk to save a filling station that may come useful for the Nation, while if he had to act only on rational lines it would be quite clear that Nation is made of people who are as far away from him than anyone else, Nation will disappear as a whole from his universe when he dies, if he had been born in the Nation's enemy he would be in his place, hence screw the Nation and run. You could also argue that inducing strong emotional atachment is part of the very nature of those entities: class, nation, race. Sure, the State does reinforce identification by promoting parades, propaganda, etc. But the feeling is there, buried in our nature. We identify more with our countrymen because we are ultimately more related to them, through ties of blood, than to any random Chinese. We speak the same language, eat the same food, share similar values and have recent common ancestors. (If you go back 10000 years, Nock, you probably share at least one ancestor with any random Italian, which is not the case with a Chinaman). In a sense, it´s like marriage: you don´t need the Church to tell you to bed pretty Marguerita, but you need a extra push to make it to the altar.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 19, 2005 4:58:29 GMT -5
The future of legal immigration is the real issue here though... Exactly. You can stop illegal inmigration just by applying the law. To prevent any inmigration at all, you need a counter-policy.
|
|
|
Post by nockwasright on Oct 19, 2005 5:34:42 GMT -5
But the feeling is there, buried in our nature. We identify more with our countrymen because we are ultimately more related to them, through ties of blood, than to any random Chinese. We speak the smae language, eat the same food, share similar values and have recent common ancestors. (If you go back 10000 years, Nock, you probably share at least one ancestor with any random Italian, which is not the case with a Chinaman). In a sense, it´s like marriage: you don´t need the Church to tell you you want to bed Margueritta, but you need a extra push to make it to the altar. I do not deny I'm more "similar" to a random Italian than a random Chinese. I deny there is a rational reason to feel also something for someone because of his being more related to me by common ancestry and common usages. As for marriage, its quite a more ancient and more natural concept than Nation or Race, that involve such a number of person and facts past and present that only a very structured society can keep record of them and recognize their existence. I agree (marriage) it's part nature part culture, though. @educate Me: I don't see the difference, under this point of view, in being inherently worse or just worse here and now. Mexico is Mexico because of the Mexicans (here and now, not inherently) and USA because of the Americans. Those Mexicans who go to the States implicitly recognise they prefer USA to Mexico. As Mexico is made what it is by them, importing them is like changing a little bit USA into Mexico. Then it's bad even for the immigrants scheme of values. They are inferior (lower IQ, lower level of civilisation) now and they are coming now. Opposition to immigration on the grounds that immigrants are on the whole worse than the residing population does not imply racism.
|
|
|
Post by human2 on Oct 19, 2005 6:15:44 GMT -5
(If you go back 10000 years, Nock, you probably share at least one ancestor with any random Italian, which is not the case with a Chinaman). Uh no... There are Chinamen who share a common ancestor with Ethiopians before they share an ancestor with another Chinamen. I'm sure Italians are not excluded from fate's treatment.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Oct 19, 2005 8:44:14 GMT -5
Alright. Let´s say 5000 years, does that make more sense, human2? I´m sure Nock would be delighted to share an ancestor with you. You´re terribly progressive, after all! LOL!
|
|