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Post by k5125 on Sept 20, 2005 17:00:59 GMT -5
Btw, someone on here once said that Jefferson Davis himself was of Sephardic ancestry, not sure if its true though.
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Post by Melnorme on Sept 20, 2005 17:04:55 GMT -5
"How The Irish Became White Folk", I think.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 20, 2005 17:08:48 GMT -5
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Post by Melnorme on Sept 20, 2005 17:16:03 GMT -5
I don't think Jews ( or Italians, or Irish ) were ever really truly considered non-white in America ; at worst, they were seen as alien swarms of 'sub-whites'.
Remember when these people immigrated ; it's not likely that they would have even been allowed to immigrate in such large numbers if they were truly perceived as non-whites.
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Post by k5125 on Sept 20, 2005 17:24:35 GMT -5
I don't think Jews ( or Italians, or Irish ) were ever really truly considered non-white in America ; at worst, they were seen as alien swarms of 'sub-whites'. Remember when these people immigrated ; it's not likely that they would have even been allowed to immigrate in such large numbers if they were truly perceived as non-whites. I think the term "white" meant something entirely different back then, as opposed to common definition today (white=european). White was probably more of a class, and a cultural marker. That explains why the irish were not white then. I would really like to know if Portuguese Gentiles (or Jews) for that matter were white then. Today, they certainly wouldn't be considered such. Well...by blacks and arabs they would be viewed as white, but not by most americans of european descent. Could this man really be not white?
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Post by Hairless on Sept 20, 2005 23:11:10 GMT -5
One thing to remember is that many Native Americans and Black mulattos "passed" as "Black Irish" or other Southern European races. I'm sure that does not explain all of the situations, but -for example- there is in my family history an example of some cousin in the early 1800s marrying a "Spanish" woman in an area where I doubt there was anyone actually from Spain (where there were a LOT of Native Americans). So I guess calling her Spanish was an attempt to conceal her true race. There was definitely a lot of bias against certain immigrant groups throughout history, although it often seemed to be more about class and culture than about pigmentation. There was a time when wealthy women sat around at tea parties and invested a lot of self-worth in the fact that they had ancestors they could trace to the American Revolution, more as a matter of excluding immigrants and setting themselves above than actually honoring those ancestors. Chinese and other Asian immigrants faced similar problems (and may still to some extent even from non-white Americans). I just want to say that the term "Black Irish" has nothing to do with african americans or mulattos. The term was used to describe an Irish person with black/raven hair. Ever heard of the black Irish rose? Well, it would be a beautiful Irish girl with black hair. Also, I don't recall anything about the Irish not being considered "white" in those days. I do however recall that they were mistreated because they were catholics. When the first catholics came to an all protestant town, they would oogle at them as if they were from outer space. "Wow, look at those people, they're CATHOLICS!!!" I don't think that it had anything to do with skin colour, but everything to do with religion. If anyone has sources that factfully states that Irish were not considered 'white' let me know. That doesn't mean they were considered black either. I don't think Southern Europeans were considered black back then either. They just weren't WASPs... What wasn't considered a WASP back then doesn't necessarily mean it was considered 'black'. They were ignorant and racist to the nth degree, but not stupid. It's my understanding that those groups themselves (e.g., Irish, Dutch, German) didn't call themselves "Black x" but rather that arose in the context of people blending in, i.e. mulattos and NA. That might be wrong, however. Do darker people in Ireland actually call themselves "Black Irish"?
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Post by Hairless on Sept 20, 2005 23:15:17 GMT -5
I don't think Jews ( or Italians, or Irish ) were ever really truly considered non-white in America ; at worst, they were seen as alien swarms of 'sub-whites'. Remember when these people immigrated ; it's not likely that they would have even been allowed to immigrate in such large numbers if they were truly perceived as non-whites. I think the term "white" meant something entirely different back then, as opposed to common definition today (white=european). White was probably more of a class, and a cultural marker. That explains why the irish were not white then. I would really like to know if Portuguese Gentiles (or Jews) for that matter were white then. Today, they certainly wouldn't be considered such. Well...by blacks and arabs they would be viewed as white, but not by most americans of european descent. Could this man really be not white? In my area, Portuguese are considered white (and there are a lot), even though many are darker than your average Japanese or Chinese person. But most have intermarried with Pacific Islanders and/or Asians and/or other whites so may consider themselves something else entirely.
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Post by Mimers on Sept 21, 2005 9:13:28 GMT -5
Excerpt from the following site: "The Irish-English conflict comes near to being racial because the British were beginning to believe that the Irish were inherently incapable of being civilized. That is a fundamentally extreme sense of ethnocentrism [...] We have to make a distinction between extreme ethnocentrism and racism. Racism involves a sense of biological differences that cannot be transcended. www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-02-16.htmExcerpt from this site where they explain certain illustrations from that time of the Irish folk: " "Equal Burdens": Here the stereotype of the belligerent Irishman meets the stereotype of the happy slave. Irish were called "white Negroes". " This makes me think that they were considered 'white' but of an inferior 'culture' to the Anglo-Saxon Protestants in America. www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.htmlExcerpt from site below. (British used to call the Irish in the 19th century, white chimpanzees): " [..] But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful: if they were black, one would not feel it so much, but their skins, except tanned by exposure are as white as ours." "Karl Marx explained the dynamic: The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker because he sees in him a competitor who lowers his standard of life." www.swp.ie/resources/Case_against_Citizenship_Referendum/Chapter_6.htm"In the middle of the 19th century Karl Marx took up the issue of anti-Irish racism in Britain, where hundreds of thousands of desperately poor Irish immigrants were being super-exploited as cheap labour. Ruling class British referred to the Irish as “white chimpanzees” and they were the target of vicious tabloid racism. Under these influences many English workers looked down on Irish workers and were racist towards them." www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw240/socialistworker-240-10.htmAnd then, after some time, the Irish became fully integrated into American society by hard work and relationship building/ "building parallels" around the catholic church. (From the first site above). I'm really glad we are discussing this, because I've read at Dodona people referring about racism of the Irish in the 19th century. But always sounded like there was something missing in the information.
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Post by Mimers on Sept 21, 2005 9:18:03 GMT -5
About the 'black Irish': From some of the things I've read and heard, because it always intrigued me, is the term does not refer to Irish of african descent. After Hollywood's Charlie's Angels movie, the african american actor that plays 'Bosley' (Bernie Mac) used the term black Irish to describe himself when he was trying to infiltrate some compound of some sort. It was with much humour, but I think, starting then on, more people started to believe that it might be true? In any case, what's important is that there is almost a myth-like aura around the term 'black-Irish'. There is one theory that its origin lies in borrowing the color of the reason for the flood of Irish immigrants into the USA in the 19th-century - flight from the Black Blight - the Potato Famine of Black '47, a memory seared into the consciousness of the expatriate Irish who survived in America. It's all romantics , and I'm a romantic at heart and how interesting all of it is...but the realistic side of me shouts out that it's just a descriptive for someone Irish with dark hair. Like Andie McDowell (sp?), meaning dark or black hair, and then just got translated to english, and then came over to America, were a term like that can be distorted in a millisecond, especially in the flood of racism and ethnocentrism. If anyone has done any research on this, or knows more, please share, we could all benefit But it's hard to find anything conclusive because not a lot of historic information on this term. Mostly speculation and theories. But I bet we can find some answers in the Irish people's names, surnames and nicknames...
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Post by Hairless on Oct 1, 2005 7:45:52 GMT -5
About the 'black Irish': From some of the things I've read and heard, because it always intrigued me, is the term does not refer to Irish of african descent. After Hollywood's Charlie's Angels movie, the african american actor that plays 'Bosley' (Bernie Mac) used the term black Irish to describe himself when he was trying to infiltrate some compound of some sort. It was with much humour, but I think, starting then on, more people started to believe that it might be true? In any case, what's important is that there is almost a myth-like aura around the term 'black-Irish'. There is one theory that its origin lies in borrowing the color of the reason for the flood of Irish immigrants into the USA in the 19th-century - flight from the Black Blight - the Potato Famine of Black '47, a memory seared into the consciousness of the expatriate Irish who survived in America. It's all romantics , and I'm a romantic at heart and how interesting all of it is...but the realistic side of me shouts out that it's just a descriptive for someone Irish with dark hair. Like Andie McDowell (sp?), meaning dark or black hair, and then just got translated to english, and then came over to America, were a term like that can be distorted in a millisecond, especially in the flood of racism and ethnocentrism. If anyone has done any research on this, or knows more, please share, we could all benefit But it's hard to find anything conclusive because not a lot of historic information on this term. Mostly speculation and theories. But I bet we can find some answers in the Irish people's names, surnames and nicknames... I have been doing a lot of Native American genealogy research for my husband and many of the experts have mentioned that it was common for NA to call themselves "Black Dutch" or "Black Irish" to avoid being removed from their Eastern homelands. In fact, it appears my husband's ancestors just assimilated into white families and when it came time to move them out West they, like many others, just did not admit that they were NA. We do have several photos that indicate the census takers of the time must have been blind or perhaps they were just kind souls. One author recalled a number of Cherokee families of his youth that claimed this ancestry but could be overheard speaking in Cherokee when they thought they were alone. I looked into whether anyone in Ireland calls themselves "Black Irish" and it seems to be a term used in America during the last century. It was common for NA to marry whites and many Irish were included. It is possible the term has more than one source but this describes at least a large portion of those who were "Black Irish". As for the Irish immigrants, they were treated as *worse* than Blacks or NA when they first arrived in the 1800s. Blacks and NA also resented them, so they really had to band together and fight for themselves. They were perceived as "good Americans" after a few decades though and were accepted. I'm sure the initial prejudice was due to the longstanding hostilities between the British and Irish, as well as the sheer number of impoverished people showing up in the large cities during the biggest immigration waves. Early in the 17th century the British had kidnapped many tens of thousands of their poorest citizens, as well as many Irish, and sold them into slavery in the Barbados. A few ended up as slaves in the Colonies, too. Lots of strange things that get glossed over in history class
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