Low IQ of the black race (revisited)

[mmmkay]

I noticed that at dodona people seem like their stuck in time or something. People quote carlton coon and use the word "negro" like this is the jim crow era. But besides that I thought I'd give some of you a much needed history lesson concerning the oft talked about "black" people.



Now alot of people are under the assumption that "blacks" are dumb, lazy, promiscuis lol every stereotype in the book. If this were the case, this would be consistent throughout history at all levels and places, fortunately, history does not demonstrate that.



The earliest civilization in black africa was nubia/kush. It was very prosperous and had a unique architectural style. Nubia was not a "spin-off" it was more of a "sister" to egypt that was independant and competed with egypt. The egyptians and kushites considered themselves different nations and peoples regardless of the influences. A little-known discvery made 2 years ago detailed this quite interestingly ,

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4484-760013,00.html




Pyramids require basic to rather advanced trigonimitry and calculations and architectural techniques, black africans did this over 2,000 years ago, clearly not the
mark of stupidity or laziness as they sometimes require hundreds to thousands of workers and an administrative class dedicated to their production and management.

next lesson --->

Swahil city-states

The swahili are one of my favorite subjects of study. Their language has quite a few arabic and persian loan-words due to long ties and trade with the middle-eastern world. But in structure, vocabulary and pronunciation it is a bantu
language. This can be said of the culture of the swahili as well, which developed a distinct architectural style over the period of 600 years. The stone architecture is a reflection of local material harnessed for housing, not imported techniques.

swahili.rutgers.edu/gallery/Gede_Ruins.jpg
Pic too wide removed

The swahili were and are basically maxxxed out bantu africans who took advantage of the lucrative trade networks of the indian ocean to become wealthy and developed. They went from village-based, rural economies and societies to urbane, literate (arabic), and dependant
upon coastal trade between cities, and a web of commerical networks.

www.grioo.com/images/rubriques/13/
4433.jpg[/img]

Wealth was mostly created through the investments of a wealthy mercantile class consisting of families or clans, like
like competing corporate clans vying for control of markets. The worlds first "corporations" if you can call them that. The "venture capitalists" were wealthy families, it was pre-industrial capitalism at its best.

Such a society would not be possible had the people not had the business saavy and intelligence to recognize opportunity of indian oceantrading networks and capitalize on it. The minting of coins (like in the swahili city of kilwa) means they were developing an advanced, standardised system of exchange to facilitate trade. They were not theives or thugs who stole peoples dignity and livelihoods (such as the portuguese who later came) but a productive, orderly, devout society who sought to increase their fortunes while providing services, and faciliating trade, thus creating wealth and raising living standards.

next lession--->


mali/songhai



The book that you see in the top picture there is a manuscript from timbuktu in west africa, and one of the great ancient centers of learning, where it is said that over 750,000 books were written on subjects ranging from philosophy, to astronomy, mathematics and conflict management. The mali/songhai people were devout muslims who also sought to maintain their traditional african roots and culture. The sale of books was the most profitable industry at that time, but the most intriguing aspect of the culture was the utter lack of serious criminal activity and the hospitality which the ancient muslim geographer Ibn battuta commented on over 600 years ago . Ghana today for instance has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and the people are said to be very friendly
www.link2exports.co.uk/cc/regions.asp?lsid=182&pid=156
www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/africa/ghana.html

Now compare all this to ancient northern europe and much of western europe at the time. Which was backward, crime infested, diseased and rather poor. Before you talk about the "low IQ of the black race" read a history book or something and look to see if your claim can be consistent. I 've demonstrated that its obviously not. Unless there was some sort of recent friek accident which causes black africans to be stupid, crime-prone and lazy, I'll assume we are speaking of the same people who have the same capacity as before in the past to create these things.

History is full of twists and turns, lol the mongols came out of nowhere and conquered most of eurasia . How did scandanavia come to lead the world in human developement when only a few centuries ago they were lagging behind? Make intelligent, consistent analysis's and do not base your conclusions on the tired theories of bigots and pseudo-scientists.

[Mike the Jedi]

You are right about one thing, and that is northern Europe was just as tribal as most of black Africa at one point. In light of this, Nordicist ideas fall flat on their faces. However, southern Europe is a different story, and the success of Greece and Rome is often inflated to mean the success of Europe. In reality, it is the success of SOUTHERN Europe.

Perhaps a better question is... do West African civilizations like Mali and Songhai measure up to the standard set by East African ones like Nubia and Aksum?

Remember, we are talking about different Negroid types here, which might explain a few things as to why some African civilizations are more respected and "fought over" by crazy -centrists than others.

Europeans and West Asians would identify with Nilotic and Aethiopid peoples who looked more similar to themselves with their "finer, nobler" features, as opposed to the "ugly, primitive" features of West, Central, and Southern Africans who looked nothing like Caucasians at all. This is the foundation of the Hamitic myth. And Eurocentrists got away with it for a long time because no one had the guts or tenacity to disprove their faulty theories.

Of course, you're right that not all East Africans are Nilotid or Aethiopid. Many of the East Africans south of the horn are maxxed out Bantu, and because of this, I don't think the Swahili states were respected as much by 19th century folks as civilizations founded by people who looked more like Tutsis and Somalis.

It's a mind game of Elongated African vs. Broad African. The poor diminutive Africans don't get a fair shake at all.

[mmmkay]

Perhaps a better question is... do West African civilizations like Mali and Songhai measure up to the standard set by East African ones like Nubia and Aksum?

Remember, we are talking about different Negroid types here, which might explain a few things as to why some African civilizations are more respected and "fought over" by crazy -centrists than others.

the nubians were maxxxed out central african look-alikes, about as black as black can get, west africans look like brazilians compared to sudanese.

In comparison the civilizations excelled in different areas. For instance neither nubia nor askum had universities, mali/songhai did however. But everybody would agree their aesthetic factor in terms of architecture was more refined in eastern africa. Beautiful ancient cities such as kilwa and meroe attest to this. (ahem) I really could'nt say alot about the mud-brick architecture of western africa, that is tacky. But their universities kicked ass!

[Mike the Jedi]

Hmmm... I'm not so sure about what Negroid type the Nubians were in antiquity. I think in the past many of them looked more like Somalis than southern Sudanese people, who are obviously very Nilotic today. But yes, Nilotic types most surely existed in Nubia, as shown in exaggerated form on the Egyptian murals.

But I'm not an expert on that area, I'm just guessing here based on what I've seen and heard in various mediums, books, and messageboards. I would like to learn more about Nubia, though, and its relationship to Egypt.

[nockwasright]

mmmkay said:

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4484-760013,00.html

Can someone access the link? I can't.

next lesson --->
Swahil city-states
The swahili are one of my favorite subjects of study. swahili.rutgers.edu/gallery/Gede_Ruins.jpg
Pic too wide removed

First lesson: when (you give no hint when this civilisation existed) and where. In other words, what are you talking about? Where's this kilwa?
Second lesson: references: as it is your favourite subject of study, you should have no problems in pointing us out who discovered what and when about this civilisation and thus why should we think it existed. Btw, the Portugese weren't much impressed by what they found when they arrived in Africa, if I were you I would be wary of comparisons.

The swahili were and are basically maxxxed out bantu africans

What does this immaginary word "maxxxed" mean in your world?

The book that you see in the top picture there is a manuscript from timbuktu in west africa, and one of the great ancient centers of learning, where it is said that over 750,000 books were written on subjects ranging from philosophy, to astronomy, mathematics and conflict management.

When? 600 years ago? Did you ever read or did someone in our time read any of these books? How do we know they existed (I'm not provoking you, I'm really asking). Do you realise that odyssey is around 900 b.c., just to give you a reference?

The sale of books was the most profitable industry at that time

What do you mean with most profitable? It gave the highest dividends? Before Gutemberg? Mah.

Ghana today for instance has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and the people are said to be very friendly

Maybe is because all their criminals crawling and hiding managed to came here in Europe to run their low budget Ghanese prostitutes businesses. Strange they want to leave such a paradise, where life expectancy is 56 years, literacy rate 74% and only 3% has AIDS.
Do you realise that crime rates statistics are drawn after police and judiciary reports? And that this requires an efficient State structure? That surely is to be found in this "major transit hub for Southwest and Southeast Asian heroin and, to a lesser extent, South American cocaine destined for Europe and the US; widespread crime and money laundering problem" www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gh.html

Now compare all this to ancient northern europe and much of western europe at the time.

Which time are you talking about? Are you out to prove that not in all times all places of Europe were more developed than all places of Sub Saharan Africa?

[mmmkay]

Can someone access the link? I can't.

Just copy and paste, the link is not working right normally here. (yes that means you have to do a little extra) ;D

First lesson: when (you give no hint when this civilisation existed) and where. In other words, what are you talking about? Where's this kilwa?

My bad, I was writing alot of stuff so I missed some things.

the swahili city states circa 900 a.d. to 1500 a.d.
coast of east africa



inter-indian ocean trade networks and location of coastal cities.

Sorry, It was too much information at one time.

Second lesson: references: as it is your favourite subject of study, you should have no problems in pointing us out who discovered what and when about this civilisation and thus why should we think it existed. Btw, the Portugese weren't much impressed by what they found when they arrived in Africa, if I were you I would be wary of comparisons.

Really?

"The captain-major told the pilot to show him the port, and that he wished to go to quiloa, which he did; and on sighting it, he entered the port with the whole fleet, which anchored round the city, which stands on an island which is surrounded and encircled by the sea water, but on the land side there is little water, which at high tide is knee-deep. The city is large and is of good buildings of stone and mortar with terraces, and the houses have much wood works. The city comes down to the shore, and is entirely surrounded by a wall and towers, within which there may be 12,000 inhabitants. The country all round is very luxuriant with many trees and gardens of all sorts of vegetables, citrons, lemons, and the best sweet oranges that were ever seen, sugar-canes, figs, pomegranates, and a great abundance of flocks, especially sheep, which have fat in the tail, which is almost the size of the body, and very savoury. The streets of teh city are very narrow, as the houses are very high, of three and four stories, and one can run along the tops of them upon the terraces, as the houses are very close toghether: and the port there were many ships."(Freeman-Grenville 1975:66)

-Portuguese navigator Vasco de Gama, 1502, remarking on the east african city of "Kilwa"

Think I was just pullin this stuff out my ass? ;D I don't know about you but he sounds pretty impressed to me.

What does this immaginary word "maxxxed" mean in your world?

What it means is basically they were africans with very "negroid" features, they were maximised for africanness, they were "maxxxed" just puts emphasis on their sub-suharan african character.

When? 600 years ago? Did you ever read or did someone in our time read any of these books? How do we know they existed (I'm not provoking you, I'm really asking). Do you realise that odyssey is around 900 b.c., just to give you a reference?

They were written at various point by various authors between 1200 ad and 1600 ad because their was a large scholarly atmosphere in mali, west africa, if you want to learn more start with this link: www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/

What do you mean with most profitable? It gave the highest dividends? Before Gutemberg? Mah.

refer to above link

Maybe is because all their criminals crawling and hiding managed to came here in Europe to run their low budget Ghanese prostitutes businesses. Strange they want to leave such a paradise, where life expectancy is 56 years, literacy rate 74% and only 3% has AIDS.
Do you realise that crime rates statistics are drawn after police and judiciary reports? And that this requires an efficient State structure? That surely is to be found in this "major transit hub for Southwest and Southeast Asian heroin and, to a lesser extent, South American cocaine destined for Europe and the US; widespread crime and money laundering problem" www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gh.html

Do you realise that literacy rate is one of the highest by sub-saharan african standards? Do you realise some countries like botswana have a MUCH higher percentage of AIDS cases (something like 30%)? 3% is nothing in a nation of 20 million. I believe even the US is hovering around that rate.

About the prostitutes thing you must be joking right? Ghana may have a low crime rate but it is still a relatively poor country, so people obviously would leave to find better opportunities, I never said is was a utopia.
Every country, especially poor ones export prostitutes, ask eastern europeans. ;D

Ghana has one of the most forward-looking governments in SS africa. Its high on the investment index and those result were published by INTERPOL. You should really do your homework.

Which time are you talking about? Are you out to prove that not in all times all places of Europe were more developed than all places of Sub Saharan Africa?

No, I was just trying to get people to understand that common negative perceptions of blacks are'nt neccessarily historically consistent and that things are always subject to change at any moment in time.

[nockwasright]

mmmkay said:

No, I was just trying to get people to understand that common negative perceptions of blacks are'nt neccessarily historically consistent and that things are always subject to change at any moment in time.

Thanks for the answers mmmkay. The informations are interesting.
Btw I agree on the point you make here.
On Ghana you are right, even if not all poor countries export prostitutes, many, also caucasian, do.

[oguz]

I don't think black race has low IQ. I think their main problem is they haven't a comman culture and they can't unite for one single purpose. Even two tribes in same region are fighting each other for stupid causes.
If a society is developed that doesn't mean they have high IQ. IQ is individual. A country develops by common culture and united people with good ethics for single purpose . To govern and direct all of these people; 1 percent high IQed and good caharactered people is enough.

[Ponto Hardbottle]

mmmkey, stick with West Africa. Leave East Africa alone. East Africa, Swahili, Nubia or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with the African negroid ancestors of any Americans. Forget the folklore, it is all bullshit.
The word negro existed long before caucasoid or negroid people knew about the Americas. Europe was relating with Africa long before America, as in centuries before. So forget your American Coon or Jim Crow or any other boring reference to the USA.
Conquest does not mean intelligence. Otherwise the Conquistadors were masterminds.
And why do you assume Songhai or Timbuktu, been there by the way, very dusty, had nothing to do with the influence of Northern Africa? The thing is most African civilizations come from the Northern section of Africa in close proximity to the Mediterranean or Red Sea or West Asia. Assuming a homeground African negroid genesis for any African civilization is as stupid as Greenberg's idea about the Semitic languages.

[Nist]

holyjesus said:

Assuming a homeground African negroid genesis for any African civilization is as stupid as Greenberg's idea about the Semitic languages.

Can you back this up? Or is it just 'common sense'

[Ponto Hardbottle]

And why should I? How did Greenberg justify his hypothesis about the origin of Semitic languages in Africa. From the fact that there are more Semitic languages spoken in Africa than West Asia? That is one big deal! There are millions of Americans, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders who speak English as their mother language. In fact more than live in Europe. Does that alter the origin of English in Europe? How about Spanish. There are more Spanish speakers in the Americas than Europe. In fifty years time, there will be a large number of European born people who will be speaking Indian, Pakistani, Arabic, Turkish than IE speakers. My oft mentioned statement that a child of 8 can come to the same conclusion as Greenberg. It is a smart hypothesis! The NE part of Africa has been in the cultural orbit of West Asia for thousands of years and cannot be treated the same way as other parts of Africa with less northern or non African based influences. The Greenberg hypothesis is the one everyone accepts because Africa is THE PLACE, and saying otherwise is heterodoxy. Yes I am implying the Africa thing is religious in its nature.
If you have an open mind, check up the other linguists who have different viewpoints to Greenberg and there are many who have disagreed. I choose to accept the dissenters not the African centered bullies.

[Drooperdoo]

I feel really bad about the impulse behind Afrocentrism--the inferiority complex of a people who assume that they have to be responsible for great turning-points in history. Of course, sub-Saharan Africans are not responsible for many turning-points. But, then, they're only 7% of the human population. They're numerically irrelevant--hence created less of an impression on the history of men and nations. Add to that their isolation, behind the massive Sahara.
It's not their fault that they were outside of the mainstream, cut off from the crossroads that led to trade and cultural crosscurrents.
Sure, sub-Saharans are irrelevant--but so are Australian aborigines, Eskimos, Basques, etc.
But with all the other groups, no one makes them feel guilty--like they should have been responsible for all the great movements of history.
But blacks have been made to feel guilty . . . or [worse] inferior. When they shouldn't. Why should a Caucasoid Basque feel guilty for not having a hand in the invention of the steamship? Or an Eskimo guilty for not inventing moveable type?
They shouldn't. They're only a tiny percentage of humanity. What the hell do you expect from small groups?
Stop treating sub-Saharans as if they should have been more inventive, when the only reason Mediterranean cultures thrived was geography: Their proximity allowed for an exchange of ideas, trade, innovation. Add to that the body of water that facilitated ships and communication.
West-African blacks didn't have that advantage. (Remember: Northern Europe was backward and illiterate until very recent times for the same reasons. Southern Europe, on the Mediterranean, advanced much faster than the Germanic tribes cut off in the north. Black Africans were no less "savage" or "illiterate" than the pink Germans that the Romans built walls to keep out.) So stop making people feel guilty for events and influences beyond their control.

[mmmkay]

mmmkey, stick with West Africa. Leave East Africa alone. East Africa, Swahili, Nubia or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with the African negroid ancestors of any Americans.

Where the hell do you think west africans came from? Out of the Atlantic ocean ? That is just a dumb statement to make ponto, look at a sudanese or a kenyan and try to tell me again if theres no relationship. Also seeing as bantu-speaking people orginate from west africa lol.


North african "influence"? I suppose, but I know you well enough to know how you'd twist that into saying north africans "started" west african civilizations. Anyways Ponto, some of the mightiest civilizations can be the result of diffusion, besides that theres no reason not to believe it did'nt go both ways


And the conquistadors were indeed masterminds ;D