|
Post by Minstrel on May 27, 2005 6:23:35 GMT -5
Lol yeah. Tribalism has its benefits though (social support system, sense of "community", general psychological well-being etc) It all comes down to what you want outta society. THe modern socio-economic theory of "anarchism" or communalism comes from tribalism in function and derivation. Eventually we might revert to such self-sufficient societies in the future, with the decline of the nation-state system.
|
|
|
Post by mike2 on May 27, 2005 6:32:51 GMT -5
Most definitely, but in the unconscious mind these tribal societies are seen as inferior because they remind us of Stone Age primitive society. In the back of our minds we say, "Anyone can build a tepee, but can anyone build a Parthenon?" This is the logic behind cultural supremacy. What's most impressive is what's best. What's interesting is before influence came from the Mediterranean, Northern Europe was probably very much like black Africa and the Americas. Disjointed, tribal, and not-so-impressive-to-the-senses. Northerners weren't anything special back then, either. All they would have had were stone monuments and longhouses. You could say they were "civilized" by simple circumstance of geography. That doesn't make me a Mediterraneanist in this instance. I'm just calling it like I see it. Northern Europe is very much a cultural continuation of Southern Europe, since Western Civilization began in Hellas. I wonder if there is a correspondence between the achievements of civilization and climate. It seems the golden mean regions, like the littoral of the Mediterranean, were the most successful. Colder climates like in Northern Europe and hotter climates like in the African tropics perhaps put more of an emphasis on staying alive than impressing anyone.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on May 27, 2005 7:48:29 GMT -5
Minstrel, It´s only natural that European culture and history should be taught in Western nations as part of the curriculum (I presume you live in the USA). Did the Ashanti study foreign cultures? Of course, they didn´t.<br>Now if you were to argue that studying other cultures should be encouraged, I´d agree. Once students have a good command of their own culture, they can venture into the study of other cultures and civilizations. But you cannot ignore your own culture and favour any other alien culture because it´s trendy to do so. That´s called multiculturalism. On the other hand, don´t you realize that European culture is the only one who has shown an interest in other cultures? Universities in the West do have Anthropology, Far Eastern and Islamic Studies departments. If you´re looking for parochialism, you should look somewhere else.
|
|
|
Post by nockwasright on May 27, 2005 8:48:04 GMT -5
You might be right, maybe its more cultural than racial, however I always get the feeling "whites" or europeans are out to prove something. It's like saying you keep photos of your family in your house because you think your folks are the most beautiful people in the world. We celebrate our culture just because its ours, every population does so.
|
|
geo
Full Member
hellene
Posts: 135
|
Post by geo on May 27, 2005 13:30:35 GMT -5
I think it really is a function of complexity and creativity. And unity, as well. Very good post. The things you mention are ingredients of a civilization. It's a matter of growth and maturing also. Like it happens in a single living organism. What's the use of the colours of a flower when the bee sees ultraviolet? It may as well be its artistic expression! Architecture matures to be an artistic expression of the given civilization. The civilization expresses its biomas and experiences in this world by means of shapes and colours and using the materials provided by its surrounding nature. Which brings us to.. I wonder if there is a correspondence between the achievements of civilization and climate. If there is, it would be like, the most natural thing in the world
|
|
|
Post by topdog on May 27, 2005 14:31:50 GMT -5
i don't buy the logic that Africa was and is irrelevant to the world and people who make such stupid comments are usually referring to the world as we know it for the past 300-500 years. When we view Africa from a total histrorical view and not chest-pound about achievements that Europeans have made in the last 300-500 years, only then can one truly see that Africa was indeed relevant to the world.
|
|
|
Post by Minstrel on May 27, 2005 15:06:56 GMT -5
Hmmmm, I would'nt say that, after all, human history itself started in africa, that is a gross mis-representation of history to say it was'nt relevant.
|
|
|
Post by topdog on May 27, 2005 15:13:05 GMT -5
Does it matter if it was relevant or not to the rest of the world? I don't think Africa historically had any (relatively) great relevancy to the rest of the world. And who cares if it didn't? I don't give a damn what Whites think of my culture. Or if my culture was not the same, or "not up to par". It's my culture and I love it. Have to. Seriously, you just give off this vibe that you are asking for approval from Whites. Maybe it's not a fair appraisal but that's how your vibes feel like to a lot of people. I don't want the approval of whites, I in fact thumb my nose at those who do seek approval from whites , but fact is fact and Africa was relevant to the world. I'm an African American man from the Deep Southern United States, we don't seek approval of whites.
|
|
|
Post by Minstrel on May 27, 2005 16:01:03 GMT -5
Well, you have the moors (west africans, berbers, arabs) who influenced and took over spain for a period, which ultimately to a general european revival of learning. The egyptians are said to have started the idea of monotheism, which ultimately influenced the hebrews, and lead to the formation of christianity and islam. Those, amongst others things influenced the outcome of the world greatly.
Also lets not forget the african diaspora today who have arguably one of the world most influence cultures in terms of lingusitics, stlye, music, even religion which is most prominent in latin america.
Another dude came on here caying chinese influenced the world more than SSA africans. I told him they were isolationist and they never colonised anything in their entire history, mainly keeping to themselves. Various african civs in earlier times tryed to start their own conquests (nubians and aksumites), but were checked. As the centuries wore on, we saw the decline of african powers such as these and the rise of arabs and europeans. Africans ("the ethiopians") were considered world powers many years before the advent of todays european naton-states! Europeans missed the glory age of african powers by 1,000 years. They had already been there and done that.
|
|
|
Post by alexandrian on May 27, 2005 16:40:08 GMT -5
Well, you have the moors (west africans, berbers, arabs) who influenced and took over spain for a period, which ultimately to a general european revival of learning. The egyptians are said to have started the idea of monotheism, which ultimately influenced the hebrews, and lead to the formation of christianity and islam. Those, amongst others things influenced the outcome of the world greatly. Excluding sub-Saharan Africans, the Egyptians did a lot more than just monothiesm, an important invention in and of itself. They wre the first to launch a solar calendar, they were the first to come up with geometry, the concept of pi, and pythagorean theorems. They had the most organized societal structure at the time and were the only ancient civilization to have any semblance of upward mobility. There was relative gender equality. The Egyptians had a very heavy influence on Minoans, Greeks, and Phoenicians. We were the first to write on a paper-like substance. First to treat the fever and recognize it as a sickness, first to treat broken bones, and first to perform brain sugery. The Egypitnas built a structure that was the tallest in the world for 4000 years, from 2500 BC to the Eiffel Tower. Furthermore, the Morroccans brought education to Spain and Muslim North Africans were the ones who helped spark the Renaissance by opening up centers of learning and translating things. Let's not forget the city of Alexandria either, the navel of the world and center of education. Egyptian historical records were use to remind Greeks of their history after the burning of Athens. Add to that that Cairo was a major center of Islamic learning and trade in medieval times, and you have a country that is probably the most consistently influential in world history. Egypt's consistent prominence in world affairs simply can not be denied and the only nations that come close are China, Italy, and Syro-Lebanon, the latter coming near even with Egypt. OH, and remember that the entire concept of monasticism, one of the hallmarks of medieval Christianity, originated in Egypt.
|
|
|
Post by Wadaad on May 27, 2005 16:49:39 GMT -5
Egypt wasnt all that advanced military wise, thats why the shepherd nomadic rascals called the Hysksos defeated them. Actually every known civilization has a particular weakness
|
|
|
Post by alexandrian on May 27, 2005 17:05:41 GMT -5
You're over-rating Egypt. Remember the 7 page list of Chinese chest-pounding I laid? This has nothing to do with national pride. I tell it like it is. Can't stand inflated egos of whatever derivation. No, the Chinese did. No, meritocracy through the exam system was the imperial system of China. In the ancient world, that was the prime example of bureaucracy and meritocracy. Navel and center to who? Just get over your anti-Egyptian feelings. You know full well China wasn't very involved in world affairs for most of its existence. The Chinese did not come up with upward mobility. First of all, meritocracy was not really implemented until the Tang dynasty (627 AD). Even then, schooling was technically opened to all, but costs were steep and thus only the noble classes could afford to implement their kids in the education system and thus get ahead, obviously, there were exceptions. On the other hand, ancient Egypt was one of the few places in its time (and by that i mean the 1000s and 2000s BC, far older than TAng China) to have any sense of upward mobility, where people from the poor classes could get ahead and propel himself in life by devoting time to becoming a scribe (usually reserved for the rich) or an artisan (open to all). The Chinese did not come up with the concept of pi before the Egyptians. The Egyptians tapped pi at 3.16, very accurate for the time, and already knew of the existence of pythagorean triples like 3,4, and 5 far before the Chinese began to understand geometry. You must look at things in the context of time- the Egyptians were a far older and much more continuous civilization than the Chinese. Furthermore, the Egyptians played a very important role in world affairs from ancient times through Greco-Roman times, through Christian times, Islamic times, medieval times, Ottoman times, and colonial times, and even during the Cold War. They did all this with only a fraction of China's population. Alexandria was indisputably, the center of the entire world during the Greco-Roman period. The entire civilized world of the time was part of the Hellenic region, of which Alexandria was the undisputed center. The Alexandria Library hosted the greatest thinkers known to man and where many of our modern scientific concepts originated. Egypt was one of the major forces and influences in contributing to and developing the Western civilization that is now at the helms of the world. The entire Mediterranean region was involved in the process of crafting and developing a relatively common civilzations that was passed on to the Romans, then back to the Arab scholars of Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus, and Cordoba and then back again to the scholars of Renaissance Florence where they stayed in Europe to make it the center of the world. Chinese inventions and contributions are rather limited, and mostly in the form of material things. Though it was a very very impressive civilization, ancient China simply was not as old as and did not contribute as much to Western civilization as Egypt. OH, and I forgot our most important contribution- that of PEACE. The first peace treaty in recorded history was signed between the Egyptians and the HItted in Qadesh. I think that is probably the most singularly important accomplishment of ancient civilizations- the idea that men can coexist together peaceably and the idea that it is possible to be bound to peace. I'm sure we can all put aside differences and appreciate that.
|
|
|
Post by alexandrian on May 27, 2005 17:06:53 GMT -5
Egypt wasnt all that advanced military wise, thats why the shepherd nomadic rascals called the Hysksos defeated them. Actually every known civilization has a particular weakness That's true, though we did conquer Nubia and Palestine under Thutmose and Ramses II fought back the Sea People who later became the Philistines.
|
|
|
Post by Wadaad on May 27, 2005 17:51:03 GMT -5
LOL indeed, it seems even back in the day everything had the "Made in China" tag
|
|
|
Post by alexandrian on May 27, 2005 17:55:45 GMT -5
How is special and this made Egypt numero uno?. Of course. Upward mobility is one of the main features of modern day societies. The fact that Egyptians had some measure of it so early when other civilizations were stuck in caste systems or in other systems where the peasant classes were placed in permanent subordination (hint: forced labor for the Great Wall) is very important. The fact that you are denying the importance of upward mobility is a hallmark of your ignorance. When did the Egyptians do this?. 1660 BC Far older? And continuous? . Of course, Egypt's civilization was created far before that of China. Furthermore, Egypt played an important role in world affairs during ancient, Christian, Greco-Roman, Islamic, medieval, Ottoman, and colonial and Cold War times. China's influence was limited to some dynasties and a new economic resurgence. China definitely was not as great a presence on the world stage as Egypt was, despite having a population greater than ten times as much. And what are these contributions?. I already mentioned some, but there are more, mostly in the field of science and math. Arabs invented algebra, and in Alexandria is where the concept of a heliocentric universe first came about. Every shindig tribe thinks they are the center. . No other shindig tribe as Alexandria. Any man with half a brain knows Alexandria was at the center of the Hellenic (read; civilized) world. What can "Western civilization" thank Egypt for? I'm not anti-Egypt. I'll just being honest. Stop dragging Greece here, Rome there, Arabs Arabs everywhere. I thought we were talking about Egypt. . Okay, here is where you're getting confused. Egypt was an integral part of ancient Greece, Rome, and the Arab world whereas China played little or no part in any of them. Look at the civs of the ancient Mediterranean (Egyptians, Minoans, Phoenicians, Greeks). They all co-operated and interacted so much with each other and exchanged so much knowledge that they all owe each other something. Most Phoenician missions were financed by Egyptians, most wood in Egypt came from Phoenicia. It was quite a tight-knight world with everyone contributing to the Western civilizations that arose out of Greece and Alexandria. In terms of Arabia, Cairo was one of the premier centers of learning of the Islamic world, along with Damascus, Cordoba, and Baghdad. It controlled the spice trade and was one of the wealthiest cities around. There was much exchange of information between the various cities of the Islamic/"Arab" world, Egypt was a part of it and many of the Islamic scholars were Egyptian of origin or studied and unraveled their genius in Egypt. This didn't happen in introverted China. China had and contributed way more material things to even Western civilization than Egypt did. It's just simple history, though it may not be well-known. As for thought, the Chinese had 100 schools of thought, ranging from logics, political philosophy, science, metaphysics ~3,000 YA. What did Egypt have beside what Greeks brought? . Oh god. You are so ignorant. Monotheism Geometry Brain surgery ten-based mathematical system Recorded histories of other countries solar calendar just to name a few....the Egyptians brought a lot to the other civilizations of the Eastern Med, and learned a lot from them Wow. Now Egyptians invented peace. I heard it all. I'm not even trying to put Egypt down. It wasn't all that. There was no such thing as a peace treaty before the Egyptians and Hitties came up with one. Are you going to deny that? That was the first organized peace treaty ever. The Egyptians and Hitties, did, in fact, invent the concept of an organized peace. That concept never existed before then. I'm not gonna argue with you because you know nothing about ancient Near Eastern civilization and inflate Chinese accomplishments that came after the ones of Egypt and other Middle Eastern places and for the most part stayed in China, as impressive as they were. If you are dumb enough to deny Egypt's place at the top of the world's civilizations, thats your call. Our Western heritage comes from Greece which was able to fuse together influences from Egypt, Palestine, and Phoenicia, who had co-operated and interacted immensely with each other whether it mean the exchange of information, supplies, money, or genes.
|
|