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Post by alexandrian on May 19, 2005 16:12:26 GMT -5
here are Upper Egyptians from the Abdul-Halim clan in Upper Egypt during a process of reconciliation with the rival Hanashats. THe two clans embracing. (I think the guy in the brown turban looks quite European) Many Upper Egyptians are like these- typical Middle Easterners. Not all of them have 30% black blood like Gamed-awy and ERudite would lead you to believe. Acutally, ERudite probably believes they're like 80% black or something.
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Post by Shenuda on May 20, 2005 0:59:07 GMT -5
I never said that all Upper Egyptians look like mulattos or something, especially not in Asyut or Sohag, where are these people probably from. You are possessed by irrelevant racial issues, instead of important non-racial ones. I can consider Egyptian christians to be my fellows, however not americanised ones like you. You are clearly paranoid.
Anyway, I will not any more argue with you or anybody else about these trivial things. Salam
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Post by topdog on May 20, 2005 1:03:21 GMT -5
I never said that all Upper Egyptians look like mulattos or something, especially not in Asyut or Sohag, where are these people probably from. You are possessed by irrelevant racial issues, instead of important ones. You are clearly paranoid. I agree here, posting subjective picture to make a statement that all Upper Egyptians look one way in a sign of paranoia. If DYNASTIC Upper Egyptians is what he's really concerned with, why is he posting alleged modern Upper Egyptians?
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Post by topdog on May 20, 2005 1:11:45 GMT -5
Alex, your argument here is self defeating, you said basically that predynsatic Upper Egyptians aren't relevenat because they're not dynastic[as if the predynastic Egyptians were sweptd aside by the 'real' Caucasian Dynastic Egyptians, **SIGH**] but you're posting modern Upper Egyptians for what?
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Post by alexandrian on May 21, 2005 17:56:53 GMT -5
Alex, your argument here is self defeating, you said basically that predynsatic Upper Egyptians aren't relevenat because they're not dynastic[as if the predynastic Egyptians were sweptd aside by the 'real' Caucasian Dynastic Egyptians, **SIGH**] but you're posting modern Upper Egyptians for what? Because I am a modern Egyptian and these modern Upper Egyptians probably give us a really good glimpse of what the Upper Egyptians of ancient times looked like. Also, all the Afrocentrists on this board spewing the whole Upper Egyptians are black or mullatto thing was clearly wrong, so I decided to prove it so.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 22, 2005 15:41:06 GMT -5
People in areas like Middle Egypt are not exactly the best canidates for what the ancient Egyptians looked like. Middle Egypt was never isolated from foreign migrations,and there is evidence of penetraition of many of these areas by Greek and Roman settlements.
Even in Middle Egypt intermarriage between Greeks was common place. Greek settlements existed in Faiyum. Not only Greeks but Syrians as well settled in these areas.
People here are mistaken to believe that Saeed[Upper Egypt] are all the same. Minya,Asyut and Sohag are as different as Luxor-Aswan.
During the Mameluke era many bedouin Arab tribes were settled in areas like Sohag. Groups like the Haawara who claim to have originally come from Morocco.
Upper Egypt is largely tribal and not all Upper Egyptians claim to originate from the ancient Egyptians.
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Post by alexandrian on May 22, 2005 19:23:32 GMT -5
People in areas like Middle Egypt are not exactly the best canidates for what the ancient Egyptians looked like. Middle Egypt was never isolated from foreign migrations,and there is evidence of penetraition of many of these areas by Greek and Roman settlements. Even in Middle Egypt intermarriage between Greeks was common place. Greek settlements existed in Faiyum. Not only Greeks but Syrians as well settled in these areas. People here are mistaken to believe that Saeed[Upper Egypt] are all the same. Minya,Asyut and Sohag are as different as Luxor-Aswan. During the Mameluke era many bedouin Arab tribes were settled in areas like Sohag. Groups like the Haawara who claim to have originally come from Morocco. Upper Egypt is largely tribal and not all Upper Egyptians claim to originate from the ancient Egyptians. Would you put an end to making statments that you can't validate. You do not know about Egypt. Stop pretending to excuse things. I do not know which village these people come from. But it is a long lasting vendetta between two families. You are right, however, in saying Middle Egyptians are different from people living south of Luxor.
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Post by Curious6 on May 23, 2005 9:36:00 GMT -5
This continuous discussion about Egyptians is really getting old and boring. I'd guess that perhaps a third of the threads in this forum have to do with whether Egyptians are black or white or the amount of ancestry origintating from the two sides of the Sahara they have. It's the central discussion topic on this board: are Egyptians black or white? If you think about it, DODONA is actually a minor extension of EgyptSearch.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 23, 2005 15:02:26 GMT -5
Actually, you apppear to not know anything about Saidi people or Sa3eed. Anybody living in Egypt long enough knows there are Arab tribes across Sa3eed like the Ashraf,Haawara,and Ja'afra.
Areas like Middle Egypt have experianced lots of migrations from Greeks,Arabs,Berbers,and even Moroccan groups. The same goes with the Delta area in Lower Egypt.
Places like Minya,Fayoum,Asyut,and other areas in Middle Egypt go by Fellahin and Arab groups. Both these groups have had long conflicts between each other.
Even areas like Aswan has Arabic tribes like the Ja'afra and Ababda.
Since you are not from Sa3eed nor ever lived in this area you would not know anything about this area.
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Post by alexandrian on May 23, 2005 21:06:00 GMT -5
Actually, you apppear to not know anything about Saidi people or Sa3eed. Anybody living in Egypt long enough knows there are Arab tribes across Sa3eed like the Ashraf,Haawara,and Ja'afra. Areas like Middle Egypt have experianced lots of migrations from Greeks,Arabs,Berbers,and even Moroccan groups. The same goes with the Delta area in Lower Egypt. Places like Minya,Fayoum,Asyut,and other areas in Middle Egypt go by Fellahin and Arab groups. Both these groups have had long conflicts between each other. Even areas like Aswan has Arabic tribes like the Ja'afra and Ababda. Since you are not from Sa3eed nor ever lived in this area you would not know anything about this area. These places are not inhabited by roving Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia. Just be quiet. At least people like Charlie Bass know what they're talking about, you clearly don't. By the way, the villagers above were from a village called Beit al Ammal (I think) in Sohag governorate.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 24, 2005 12:50:39 GMT -5
I never said Saudi Arabia. Although, many groups around this areas claim bedouin ancestry. During the Mameluke period many bedouin groups from further north were moved into Sohag. Infact, in the census in Sohag there are people registered as Bedouins.
Not going to argue with you except I can tell you never been to Sa3eed or lived there.
In Sa3eed most of the elite claim Ashraf or Arab tribes. The rest are Fellahin.
Middle Egypt is not really considered part of Sa3eed and you don't hit deep Sa3eed untill you get to Sohag.
Arab tribes live all across parts of Middle Egypt. Some nomadic Berber and Moroccan tribes even moved into Beni suef,Fayoum,and Minya.
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Post by alexandrian on May 24, 2005 18:36:32 GMT -5
In Sa3eed most of the elite claim Ashraf or Arab tribes. The rest are Fellahin. Middle Egypt is not really considered part of Sa3eed and you don't hit deep Sa3eed untill you get to Sohag. Then this is in the deep Sa3eed, since it is in Sohag governorate. haha...the Upper egyptian elite claiming tribal affinitied? Give me a break. That's just ridiculous. MOst Upper Egyptian villages are made up of a few families where most people are related- be they wealthy landowners or lowly farm workers. This whole elite vs. worker shit is complete BS. Do the people in the above pictures look elitist to you?
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Post by Ponto Hardbottle on May 25, 2005 0:57:01 GMT -5
Outside of Bedawi groups, have any Arabs originating in Arabia ever migrated from Arabia? Are Bedawi Arabs? Personally the use of Arab is overused and misused as in the invasions from North Africa to Europe some hundreds of years ago. There were very few Arabs involved. Even Islam was mostly spread by muslim Turks not Arabs. Arabic speakers, muslims are mostly naturalised Arabs or converts from other religions and races. The fact that certain groups in North or East Africa claim Arab progenitors is not significant of the truth. Eponymous ancestors are common. Many Afghans claim to be descended from sons of Qais or some other eponymous and legendary person.
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Baladi
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Post by Baladi on May 25, 2005 21:00:35 GMT -5
You still don't understand,Alexandrian. Which is fine because you have never really lived in Sa3eed or any other region in Middle or Upper Egypt. Nor do you know the history of this region. Most of the police officals and represenatives for Sa3eed are chosen from the Ashraf tribes or the Hawwara tribes. Not saying these people are pure Arabs but there definately were bedouins settled in Sohag and other areas of Middle and Upper Egypt during the Islamic era. During the 13-14th centuries around the time of the Mamelukes there was bitter conflicts between fellahin and Hawwara Bedouin tribes. Yes, many groups across Northern and North-eastern claim Arabic ancestry but many of the people in these areas do have Arab ancestry. Especially in certain villages in Egypt that were settled by Arab tribes. The following is a nice article written on the subject: Marginalized Violent Internal Conflict In The Age Of Globalization: Mexico And Egypt Arab Studies Quarterly (ASQ), Summer, 1999 by Dan Tschirgi he authority of central governments in Upper Egypt was cemented through clientelist ties with leading families of the ashraf and arab groups. Even the Nasserist regime did not substantially undermine this political-administrative arrangement. Although land reform benefited peasant farmers to a degree, members of the landed classes used a variety of means to retain much of their holdings. Cairo continued to staff the higher ranks of the local police and security apparatus with personnel from the ashraf and arabs.(29)Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed direct descent from the Prophet, while the arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the ashraf and arabs.(30) Copts have occupied an ambivalent position in the social scale; as Christians they are considered inferior to Muslims but their individual status effectively depends on more material criteria. In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin. Although orthodox Islam is well grounded in urban areas, the countryside is the domain of a rich folk-religion, replete with beliefs in the magical, miraculous and occult.(31) The influx of villagers into Egyptian cities and towns, which by the 1970s led increasingly to the "ruralization" of these centers, provided fertile fields for anti-modernist, fundamentalist movements. Urban mosques often became centers for the recruitment of rural migrants into militant organizations.(32) www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2501/is_3_21/ai_57476490/pg_3
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Post by BadMan on May 25, 2005 23:08:17 GMT -5
I think that for the most part... the way people of an area look today; they probably looked the same thousands of years ago. Have you seen cities full of Asiatic, or part Asiatic looking Hungarians? Me nether... all Europid whites (with a noticeable blonde %). But for some reason they speak this weird language that, APPERENTLY, was brought from deep within Russia by Asiatic Magyars.
point is, I think that most groups that migrate are small, and are absorbed by the larger gene pool.
Ohh, and anyone that has to be proud of the accomplishments of their RACE rather than their own accomplishments should really re-examine their lives, maybe get their priorities in order...
The race of the Ancient Egyptians is irrelevant... if they were black, white, brown or a combination of the three, it doesn’t really matter. I know everyone wants to be on the winning team, but in the end it doesn’t matter what team your on, or what your teams **Ancient** history is, it matters how you played.
The history of Nations and races are built on the achievements of individuals.
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