Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
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Post by Samhain on Mar 30, 2005 22:44:04 GMT -5
it has always amazed me the arrogance with which Northern Europeans view the rest of the World, including Southern Europeans, Middle Easteners, Hindu and Chinese. Gosh! Northern Europe History actually began so to say 'yesterday', when the Roman legions conquered Central Europe and England. wow! how can such a superior people have come to full civilization 'yesterday'? were they not supposed then by their superiority to be leading the civilizing process from early on? how could such a superior intellectual potential be hidden for such a long time the Roman/Greek combo was indeed the only original European contribution to the world. all other European contributions (especially the Northern one) can be in one way or another related to the Roman and Greeks. as early as i was a child, as early as i could read, as early as i learnt the Celtic area was inhabited by people who lacked any higher morality (so much so that apart from elfs and gnomes, they have not left to us any spirituality or something), who practiced human sacrifices in utter illiterace, gathering big blocks of stones, were indeed no such a big thing, and that believing they are superior, as they seem to believe, and as they indeed behave towards other Europeans and Middle Easterners and Hindu, Chinese, etc, was as stupid as stupidity can get. only 500 years back, whilst Renaissance Italy was flourishing, the densely populated Britain was still absorbing Roman/Greek/Jewish legacy. the Scandinavians had just been baptized. on the other hand, and back into topic, the Hindu people have had a very long continous history. i cannot compare the moral teachings of barbarous people with Hindu classics (e.g, see this link eawc.evansville.edu/essays/de.htm), a much older and yet much deeper and original set of thoughts. India is one of the few nations which has a continuous documented history, says the link given above. In contrast, we have to rely on Tacitus and Julius Caesar (and other Romans, and also Greeks) to tells us more about the Northern Europeans. It is plainly obvious your research skills are limited and that you simply repeat what you've already witnessed others write in this forum. Education and enlightenment are found very much wanton in individuals like you. Greco-Roman legacy was very much endangered to the point were it was almost completely extinguished. They fell to a bunch of simple Germans. Your knowledge of classical Greece and Rome is obviously centered on scenes from Hollywood movies, most likely "Gladiator" etc, combined with research gathered purely in this forum. This is really not your fault, no one can blame you when your inspiration is the fault of too much television. You're not expected to have an appetite to learn history by way of primary sources, books, archaeological research etc, for admittingly these can appear dull in comparison to the glamour Hollywood, Russell Crowe and those special affects have to offer. So I do try to remind myself that it's your generation and society's fault. However, your knowledge also reminds me of the computer game, "Age of Empires". What I do commend is your appreciation of religion and it's association with high culture, if not civilisation. I consider myself Celtic, though a great spiritual people who settled most of Europe, they were pagans (as are Hindu) who committed ritual human sacrifice, this is true. But so too have native Indians, Romans e.g. throwing Christians to lions for entertainment value, crucifying Christians, the torture and execution of Jesus Christ, infanticide, persecution of Jews, mass slaughter and rape of countries they looked to expand their empire. I really would like to treat you to some hardcore stuff, but it too would appear insipid, particularly as you have already exposed your lack of interest. You're more likely to read the works of "Springa" et al, most likely Afrocentic propaganda thrown rather than that of an actual document dating back to era of St Columbas, Patrick, Lindisfarne, Iona, Bobbio, Luxiel and so on. From the book, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, by Ellen G. White: Many of the Christians fleeing from persecution in [Saxon] England, found refuge in Scotland; thence the truth was carried to Ireland, and in all these countries it was received with gladness. When the Saxons invaded Britain, heathenism gained control. The conquerors disdained to be instructed by their slaves, and the Christians were forced to retreat to the mountains and the wild moors. Yet the light, hidden for a time, continued to burn. In Scotland, a century later, it shown out with a brightness that extended to far-distant lands. From Ireland came the pious Columba and his co-laborers, who, gathering about them the scattered believers on the lonely island of Iona, made this the center of their missionary labors. A school was established at Iona, from which missionaries went out, not only to Scotland and England, but to Germany, Switzerland, and even Italy. There were two major influences on English life during this whole period of English history, at opposite ends of the aggression spectrum. One was the coming of Christianity to Britain, brought by Irish monks to places like Lindesfarne in 635, or Iona in Scotland in 563. The church had organised the whole country into diocese, each under a bishop, by about 850. Iona I can continue with all this if you prefer? PS - India can thank Indo-Europeans and Macedonian Greeks - oh let's not forget the British!
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 30, 2005 23:12:56 GMT -5
Human's reference suite: lili-one.chrispm.com/films/gladiator/gladiator_048.jpgRecommendations: img.epinions.com/images/opti/23/1e/0195148312-books-resized200.jpgwww.piacenza-pc.it/comuni/bobbio/bobbio.htmWhen looking at the spread of literacy in the 7th and 8th centuries, one is not seeing some sort of wave washing across the landscape. Rather, there is a very finite number of isolated points which nevertheless interacted, as not only were books donated and lent for copying, but monks migrated and set up centres of learning in distant places. The move was not all in the direction of from Rome outwards, as Anglo-Saxon monks set up in Germany and Irish monks in Italy. The monasteries housed an international intellectual elite.(Source) medievalwriting.50megs.com/author/monasticscribe2.htmYou may wish to investigate the proselytising work of the Irish monks, particularly the work of St. Columban, whose mission established monasteries in Iona and Northumbria. Celtic Christianity from the islands later collided with the mission of Augustine of Canterbury and the Gregorian reform of the Benedictines. These missions did, however, bring back into Europe Celtic liturgy and monastic life. The Celtic and the Roman traditions soon intertwined and complemented one another. Read about St Mungo, St Aiden, Lindisfarne, St Patrick, Bede. The Celts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales were already converted by Irish/Celtic monks. It was the English who were still heathens due to the Anglo-Saxons. Later Rome would send missionaries to convert the English, only for St Augustine to find the Britain not a land of barbarians, but: No doubt Augustine did expect he would meet barbarians but in the event he encountered well-educated ecclesiastics. Martin Henig, British historian as quoted in British Archaeology magazine (Source). www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba68/feat1.shtmlHenig also states: However,what is remarkable is the way in which Britons interacted with Irishmen from the 5th century, and both eventually converted Anglo-Saxon society. And it was in these centuries that the art and culture of Britain came to impress itself even on the Continent. Celtic Church in Scotland and Italy: www.piacenza-pc.it/comuni/bobbio/scolombano.jpg[/img] Images wider than 800 pixels as links please (DP)
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Post by SensoUnico on Mar 31, 2005 0:05:43 GMT -5
I do not know what you are going on about. Celtic Christianity? Christianity was introduced into Britain by the Romans. And someone called Patrick, a Romano-Briton, converted the Irish. So how can there be Celtic Christianity? It is just an old form of Roman Christianity diffused via Patrick. And the Romans were Dinarids mostly. Dinarids are a type of Mediterranid found in SE Europe and Italy. In fact the type is quintessentially Mediterranean and Southern European in origin. What were the Romans then? Mixed Nordics and Central European roundheads?
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Post by topdog on Mar 31, 2005 1:08:55 GMT -5
Why have you convinced yourself that Europeans completely vacated an African country rich in diamonds and left no legacy at all? When Europeans left the country it was very poor and among the world's poorest countries. Diamonds were not discovered until ***AFTER*** independence, so no, your precious Europeans had absolutely nothing to do with Botswana's success, if Europeans did, why was Botswana dirt poor right after independence? What did the Europeans do ***DURING*** colonial times in Botswana? European input in the past was nothing as we can see that Botswana was among the world's poorest nations during and right after independence. The 'input', if you want to call it that, in Botswana, is one of trade, simply because Botswana has diamonds, which were discovered ***AFTER**** colonialism. If native black Twsana people had not discovered diamonds Europeans would not be interested in Botswana. Botswana is an African success story. It achieved independence from Britain in 1966 and immediately thereafter, in a mad stroke of luck, discovered three of the world's richest diamond mines. Today it enjoys a relatively enlightened government, and good health, educational and economic standards.www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/africa/botswana/Furthermore, the ministers who control Botswana's finances are black, not Europeans, look at this link: MFDP Permanent Secretary Mr. Serwalo S.G. Tumelo Minister of Finance and Development Planning Hon B. Gaolathe MFDP Assistant Minister Mr. Duncan Mlazie www.finance.gov.bw/So where are those Europeans that never left? ? So does Liberia and Sierra Leone and look at them, whats does the language have to do with anything? You speak the language of the Englush yourself as does all of Scotland, not the original language of Scotland, big deal. Its the people, not some sort of magic in the language that has made Botswana successful. Only inasmuch that diamonds are involved, thats the only reason why Europeans are trading because Botswana has something valuable. In the Middle East, the majority of the customers who buy oil are Europeans and the U.S. but the people who control are Middle Easterners, so what point are you attempting to make? This point is moot, for Liberia and Sierra Leone both were established with governments pattern after the US[Liberia] and Britain[Sierra Leone], but they have been full of corruption and instability. Its the people and not the form of government that makes things work. You can have any form of government on paper but if the people are unwilling to abide and co-operate there will be no success nor stability. BTW, Scots were originally under a monarchy which they willingly gave up to the English. Why aren't the Scottish still a monarchy?
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 31, 2005 2:40:46 GMT -5
I do not know what you are going on about. Celtic Christianity? Christianity was introduced into Britain by the Romans. And someone called Patrick, a Romano-Briton, converted the Irish. So how can there be Celtic Christianity? It is just an old form of Roman Christianity diffused via Patrick. And the Romans were Dinarids mostly. Dinarids are a type of Mediterranid found in SE Europe and Italy. In fact the type is quintessentially Mediterranean and Southern European in origin. What were the Romans then? Mixed Nordics and Central European roundheads? Furthermore, keep in mind that St. Patrick was converted to Christianity by Egyptian Coptic Christian monks working on an island off the coast of France. So Irish Christianity owes its roots to Egypt, and many aspects of Coptic christianity are evidenced in "Celtic" christianity. The crosses are very similar.
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Post by Human on Mar 31, 2005 3:26:44 GMT -5
I do not know what you are going on about. Celtic Christianity? Christianity was introduced into Britain by the Romans. And someone called Patrick, a Romano-Briton, converted the Irish. So how can there be Celtic Christianity? It is just an old form of Roman Christianity diffused via Patrick
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
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Post by Samhain on Apr 2, 2005 21:25:00 GMT -5
I do not know what you are going on about. Celtic Christianity? Christianity was introduced into Britain by the Romans. And someone called Patrick, a Romano-Briton, converted the Irish. So how can there be Celtic Christianity?There was Celtic Christianity is the same manner as there are various other forms of Christianity. It was forbidden by the St Benedicts eventually, after there was a dispute about the celebration of Easter which resulted in the great St Columba having to leave France and settle in Northern Italy (where he is buried). Iona, Lindisfarne are excellent examples of Celtic Christianity, which in many ways also resembles Orthodox Catholicism. There are also the Lindisfarne Gospels, Book of Kells, excellent manuscripts in Celtic art but with Christian instructions and scriptures. Where do you think the Celtic Cross originates from? www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/medieval/lindis/lindisfarne.shtml#historyChristianity was lost to Southern Britain, just as it was to most of western Europe due to the various Germanic groups that had sacked Rome and settled all over. It was preserved and re-distrubuted via Irish/Celtic monks whose areas remained undisturbed during the assualt that was taking over the rest of Europe. St Patrick was born in Scotland which had not been settled by the Romans. He was born in Dumbarton, the Kingdom of Strathclyde. Yes, he was of Roman-Briton heritage, but his original name (Patrick was not his birth name) was British, some rumours say he was even descended from the French. St Patrick's own writings in his "Confessions" already state that he was a heathen, he was not born Christian and that being taken as a slave to Ireland. His introduction to God is credited to a French cleric. Quote from Catholic Encyclopedia on St Patrick: In the ways of a benign Providence the six years of Patrick's captivity became a remote preparation for his future apostolate. He acquired a perfect knowledge of the Celtic tongue in which he would one day announce the glad tidings of Redemption, and, as his master Milchu was a druidical high priest, he became familiar with all the details of Druidism from whose bondage he was destined to liberate the Irish race. St Columba is more influential than St Patrick. www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htmRomans were composed of many European mixes and beyond. However, if we quote Coon on the composition of the Romans, they are described as ethnically mixed, their originality being the little different from Kelts, though not as blonde. ST Patrick, in his own biography, attributes his teachings to St Germain, Bishop of Auxerre. St Germain was not a Copt. St Germain was taught in Rome. www.newadvent.org/cathen/06472b.htm
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Post by alexandrian on Apr 2, 2005 21:52:45 GMT -5
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Apr 2, 2005 22:11:08 GMT -5
Prospecting for diamonds in Botswana started in 1955 and this led to the discovery of these precious stones at Orapa in 1967 by Gavin Lamont. The 1967 discovery was the first in 12 years of exploration that seemed viable to mine. There were other discoveries prior to this, only 1 in 200 proved viable. ^^^^Dr Gavin Lamont (centre) and geologists at Orapa's Discovery Pit in 1968. In early 1967, after a 12 year search, a team of De Beers geologists found abundant quantities of ilmenite and garnet - two of the chief indicators of diamondiferous kimberlite - near the village of Letlhakane in north-central Botswana. After further exploration, the pipe at Orapa was found later that year. No problem," he laughed, Harry Oppenheimer owns Botswana lock, stock and barrel. "" I later found out that he wasn't far wrong. Botswana, a republic with some 6 million citizens, most nomadic tribesmen, derives more than 50 percent of it s national income from diamond, manganese and copper mines controlled by Harry Oppenheimer. The Botswana government is dependent on these mines for almost all its revenues and foreign exchange. Jim Gibson, a lanky Scotsman in his early forties, met me at the airport. He was De Beers' chief geologist at Orapa, and he had been asked to show me around the mine. He explained as we drove back to Orapa that he had been at the mine since it went into production in 1971. Indeed ;D Botswana is an African success story. It achieved independence from Britain in 1966 and immediately thereafter, in a mad stroke of luck, discovered three of the world's richest diamond mines. 'A mad stroke of luck? Nothing to do with the geologists above of course, including the 'big, lanky SCOTSMAN'. The European Union – EC plus Member States – is thus the only remaining substantial provider of development grant assistance to Botswana . This is of a certain political significance. Botswana values its development partnerships and has expressed regret that some traditional donors have withdrawn their support more completely than the country’s economic – and political – situation might appear to justify. Co-operation with the European Union is all the more appreciated because of its contractual character and its predictability under the terms of the 20-year Cotonou Agreement. As regards development loans, Botswana appears to represent an attractive placement for international lending institutions. Botswana ’s recent success in obtaining good sovereign credit ratings will undoubtedly reinforce this perception. Accordingly, regional development banks continue to provide substantial development finance, notably various Arab funds, African Development Bank (AfDB) and European Investment Bank (EIB). The 20 year Cotonou Agreement: The agreement provides the 77 ACP countries (South Africa excepted) with an extension of existing non-reciprocal preferential access for certain ACP agricultural and other goods to the EU market at least through 2002, when a preparatory period will begin during which ACP countries will build their capacities to withstand freer trade. Commencing 2002-2008, the EU and ACP will negotiate WTO compatible and reciprocal trade agreements to be implemented from 2008-2020. As part of the accord, the EU has pledged to provide ACP countries with about US$12.5 billion (EUR $13.5 billion) in official development assistance (ODA). Only one guy controls Botswana as outlined above. See above, Botswana is also 7% white and receives substantial European funding. Actually, the English language is a reflection of all the various people who have lived in Britain, as it is a combination of Germanic-Latin-French. Celtic, the so-called-original language of the Highlanders has never been the dominant language of Lowland Scotland, so that wouldn't be a true reflection. However, as a Lowlander, I speak English due to the massive cultural legacy and presence of people speaking that particular language, so that will apply in Botswana, as well as the Roman-Dutch laws which govern and moderate the society , no doubt essential for those 7% whites living there and not these poor bastards.... No, Europeans are investing substantially in order to enable African countries to survive and develop. Are you aware of how much money other countries give to Africa? Instead of just ploughing money, it is better to invest, thus Africans are in a position to pay back instead of Europeans and Americans debating on whether to simply forget the debt owed. You cannot even get facts on African debates right, so it is no wonder your facts on Scotland are so so wrong. Scotland and England merged a monarchy as the first monarch of what would become Great Britain was indeed Scottish! For the first time, there was peace and prosperity naturally followed, bringing forth the great industrial revolution. The English agreed to a union as Scots were allies with the English greatest enemies, the French. The Scots agreed as they were able to sustain being Protestant, Catholic Scots had firm allegiances to the French. By joining with England, Catholics became a minority and their customs outlawed. Nothing new about these types of deals, for the Boers swore allegiance to the British Crown is the Britons did not answer the plea of the native Tswana to help them. Yet in WWII, they were used to fight for the British Empire.
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
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Post by Samhain on Apr 2, 2005 22:30:26 GMT -5
www.ncf.carleton.ca/~er719/patrick.htmlwww.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0911165371/002-6073424-6957640?v=glancewww.russianorthodox-roac.com/35.html[/quote] The first link was a terrible choice. It confuses the flag of St Andrew, i.e the Scottish Flag with St Patrick. That immediately discredits it as this a simple, well known fact. The symbol of St Patrick is the shamrock. the "X" flag is the Saltire of Scotland and St Andrew. Also, ST Patrick was not born in Wales, this is a common mistake due to Strathclyde (lowland Scotland)at the time being part of a British- Welsh Kingdom. The second is merely that of a revisionist attempting to create something sensational. The Catholic encyclopedia is still the best resource. The Third is a review of the book, but it does have some useful references, like that of Britons being described as civilised before the arrival of the Romans: the first century BC, Diodorus Siculus describes the inhabitants of Britain who "are especially friendly to strangers and have adopted a civilized way of life because of their interaction with traders and other people"ST Patrick Apostle of Ireland , born at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland , in the year 387; christchapelonline.org/st.patrick.htmSt. Patrick was not actually Irish. he was born around 373 A.D. in the British Isles near the modern city of Dumbarton in Scotland. His real name was Maewyn Succat. He took the name of Patrick, or Patricius, meaning "well-born" in Latin, after he became a priest. holydays.tripod.com/shamrock.htm
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Post by alexandrian on Apr 2, 2005 23:11:45 GMT -5
Still, the three sources do agree that Celtic Christianity traces its roots back to Eastern/Coptic Christianity. There were Egyptian monks present in the island of Lerins (I think) where St. Patrick went and adopted Christianity.
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Post by Minstrel on Apr 3, 2005 1:20:13 GMT -5
Ahh yes black africa 2000 years ago: 1000 years ago (Ethiopia) 500 years ago (East Tanzania) Don't rag on africa, some folks built mud huts and that sort of thing, still many built in stone, coral and other materials and lived urbanised, organised, lives in cities and states. Depends on the part of africa your in.
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Post by SensoUnico on Apr 3, 2005 9:23:09 GMT -5
I do not like your avatar, the DragonBallsZ thing. Your three examples are flawed. The pyramids in Sudan are not a patch on of those of Egypt and look derivative, like bad knockoffs. The Church in Ethiopia. Christianity came to Africa via the Middle East along with the knowledge of building churches. An underground church is original. Ethiopia was influence firstly by Mosaic traditions and secondly by Christian ones. Both not native to Ethiopia. The last is obviously a Arab influenced structure. Tanzania, Kenya, Zanzibar were heavily influenced by Arabic, moslem and Indian culture and ideas. What is wrong with Zimbabwe?
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Samhain
Full Member
Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
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Post by Samhain on Apr 3, 2005 17:07:26 GMT -5
Still, the three sources do agree that Celtic Christianity traces its roots back to Eastern/Coptic Christianity. There were Egyptian monks present in the island of Lerins (I think) where St. Patrick went and adopted Christianity. Can you really consider those three different sources? The first source is very weak and cannot provide references for where the information was gathered. Indeed, it commits a fundamental mistake in confusing St Patrick with that of St Andrew and the Scottish flag. The second source is a book and reviews on it, ditto for the third - it is a review of that same book (which I am tempted to order now). However, the information you have provided concerning Egyptian Monks does have conviction: The Catholic Encycopedia: b) Celtic Monasticism (Ireland, Wales, Scotland) Authorities are still divided as to the origin of Celtic monasticism, but the view most commonly accepted is that of Mr. Willis Bund which holds it to have been a purelyindigenous growth and rejects the idea of any direct connexion with Gallic or Egyptian monasticism. It seems clear that the first Celtic monasteries were merely settlements where the Christians lived together -- priests and laity, men, women, and children alike -- as a kind of religious clan. At a later period actual monasteries both of monks and nuns were formed, and later still the eremitical life came into vogue. It seems highly probable that the ideas and literature of Egyptian or Gallic monachism may have influenced these later developments, even if the Celtic monasticism were purely independent in origin, for the external manifestations are identical in all three forms. Indeed the desire for austerities of an extreme character has always remained a special feature of Irish asceticism down to our own time. Want of space forbids any detailed account of Celtic monasticism in this place but the following articles may be referred to: (for Ireland) ARMAGH, BANGOR, CLONARD, CLONFERT, CLONMACNOISE, LISMORE, BOBBIO, LUXEUIL, SAINTS PATRICK, CARTHAGE, COLUMBANUS, COMGALL; (for Wales) LLANCARVAN, BANGOR, SAINTS ASAPH, DAVID, DUBRIC, GILDAS, KENTIGERN; (for Scotland) IONA, SCHOOL OF, LINDISFARNE, ABBEY OF, SAINTS NINIAN, COLUMBA, AIDAN. Undoubtedly, however, the chief glory of Celtic monasticism is its missionary work, the results of which are to be found all over northwestern Europe. The observance, at first so distinctive, gradually lost its special character and fell into line with that of other countries; but, by that time, Celtic monasticism had passed its zenith and its influence had declined. www.newadvent.org/cathen/10472a.htm
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Apr 3, 2005 17:27:25 GMT -5
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