Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 14:27:43 GMT -5
Actually, I tend to forget the Americas when discussing ancient history. South of Europe is really where I am referring to. However, you know fine well there are Amazon tribes living isolated from the modern world. There is something to be greatly admired in traditional groups like this, their spirtuality makes us humble, but none of us would swap our cushioned, western lifestyle to adopt theirs. Sure, they may remain out of contact through their own choice, but I suspect they just don't know any better, or in their own form of racial and cultural superiority, they view western culture as something silly and paradox to theirs. Who would argue with them given the way the can control their environment without destroying it. Yes, the eventually the meek will inherit the earth.
There's a theme being carried here and that is if one is from Europe, northern Europe in particular, then we are forbidden to compare our achievements and have to stick with a time when northern Europe was barely even populated. Yet all other groups can freely debate about other cultural achievements, yet it is unfair for the European, particularly the spoiled European to mention anything about theirs. Our history is so young, it's viewed in almost the same fashion as that of a north American (not native) trying to compare.
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Post by topdog on Mar 29, 2005 14:47:41 GMT -5
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Post by topdog on Mar 29, 2005 14:59:26 GMT -5
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Samhain
Full Member
Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 15:00:27 GMT -5
I already said European input does not count. This excludes hotels built for business men from Europe, Japan, Arabia and America. Apart from being a neighbour of South Africa, this area in particular has been under British rule, thus the very British-looking hotel and even 'wheelie bins.' (Even note the BP sign). Yes an image os suburbia in Africa is really astounding.
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 15:02:58 GMT -5
Libreville has been under the French, which explains the chateau-type buildings. You have to show us an African example without outside intervention.
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 15:12:54 GMT -5
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Post by topdog on Mar 29, 2005 15:14:32 GMT -5
I already said European input does not count. This excludes hotels built for business men from Europe, Japan, Arabia and America. Apart from being a neighbour of South Africa, this area in particular has been under British rule, thus the very British-looking hotel and even 'wheelie bins.' (Even note the BP sign). Yes an image os suburbia in Africa is really astounding. Wrong, most of what has been achieved in Botswana was done ***AFTER*** the Europeans left, so you cannot attribute whats good in Botswana to Europeans Botswana has maintained one of the world's highest growth rates since independence in 1966. Through fiscal discipline and sound management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of $8,800 in 2003. Two major investment services rank Botswana as the best credit risk in Africa. Diamond mining has fueled much of the expansion and currently accounts for more than one-third of GDP and for nine-tenths of export earnings. Tourism, subsistence farming, and cattle raising are other key sectorswww.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bc.html
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Samhain
Full Member
Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 15:24:11 GMT -5
Wrong, most of what has been achieved in Botswana was done ***AFTER*** the Europeans left, so you cannot attribute whats good in Botswana to Europeans Omittion alert **** "Formerly the British protectorate of Bechuanaland, Botswana " Europeans have yet to leave Botswana, they have too much economic input due to diamond mining. ENGLISH is the official language, there is a population of 7% whites, the legal system is based on Roman-Dutch law and the European Free Trade Association counts as 87% of the export economy (no European would leave that behind them).
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Post by Springa on Mar 29, 2005 16:38:14 GMT -5
Yep, all 100.000 of them (of which, maybe a couple thousand are really completely isolated). In a country of 180 million. "Uncivilised" indians are less than 0,1% of the population of Brazil and probably even less in the rest of South America. Hardly "everyone south of the equator" as you said. However, you know fine well there are Amazon tribes living isolated from the modern world.
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Post by Springa on Mar 29, 2005 16:49:13 GMT -5
"Off topic: A "festival of personal insults"? Where?" - Where you called him an ungratefull leach and so on. Ok, maybe it wasn't really a festival, but it was at least an enthusiastic pub gig. "Why would you make a point of intervening on a "festival of personal insults" if it didn't even concern you in the first place?" - I already told you why, because I feel it's important to keep this forum a civil place. And because it's annoying to see people behaving like third graders on the internet all the time. "By interferring instead of introducing some information to help stay on topic, you've simply aided this debate in being sidetracked even more." - Yeah, and you were on topic when you called him a leach for not being gratefull towards Bob Geldoff. "You were also compelled to explain's Human's point of view to Captain, as though you recongise Human's inability and immaturity to manage a decent debate." - Nope I was pointing out how Captain was wrong, not how Human was right. Again, "on topic" doesn't interest me on this case. Fairplay and logic does. When they're lacking, sometimes I feel it's the case to point it out. Also, you could accude Human of being wrong and point out where, which in fact I think you were at least trying to do. But you can't really accuse him of immaturity, as he didn't call you names or go beserk towards you. Edit: oh, about the RM forum, no you don't know me from there, this is the only forum of this sort I've ever used. Off topic: A "festival of personal insults"? Where? As far as I can see, in this thread in particular, I am trading on facts, only petty people like you are trying to create side shows to divert when the topic gets too tricky for Human to deal with. It's apity really as I think I know you from RM and you have good debating skills. Why would you make a point of intervening on a "festival of personal insults" if it didn't even concern you in the first place? By interferring instead of introducing some information to help stay on topic, you've simply aided this debate in being sidetracked even more. If you were more concerned about allowing debates to flow, you would have not got involved in fuelling petty quarrelling by being so overly-concerned about Human's feelings. You were also compelled to explain's Human's point of view to Captain, as though you recongise Human's inability and immaturity to manage a decent debate.
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Samhain
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Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 16:51:56 GMT -5
The example you use is like saying Australia looked like it does today when the Aboriginies had it all to themselves. The people south of the equator that lack European input are exactly what I am talking about. These people are considered civilised even in today's world. The infamous shanty towns that look little different from African villages pictured contain civilised people from what I am led to believe - are they literate? I mean, Brazil and south America in general have input from Spanish and Portuguese, so Europeans still very much at work in these parts. But some people still don't get it, it seems. Yep, all 100.000 of them (of which, maybe a couple thousand are really completely isolated). In a country of 180 million. "Uncivilised" indians are less than 0,1% of the population of Brazil and probably even less in the rest of South America. Hardly "everyone south of the equator" as you said.
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Post by Springa on Mar 29, 2005 17:02:20 GMT -5
The "shanty towns" are poor, but they're absolutely and completely different than anything that existed thousands of years ago. Guess what? They have TV's, stereos, schools and whatnot in shanty towns. Also, wasn't the discussion about northern Europe? Why are you talking about Portuguese and Spanish influence then? Also, when you said the ammusing thing about everybody south of the Equator living like thousands of years ago you didn't specify that it was "everybody except for the 99.99% that aren't wild indians". And so what if there was European input? Who said there wasn't? I mean, I, as a person, am part of this European input in America. Every society learns something from a different one. Romans left their input all over Europe. Greeks left their input in Rome and all over the mediterranean. Celts/Indo Europeans taught western Europeans how to do a lot of stuff. And so on. And why the hell did you include a picture of Calcutta in your post??? The example you use is like saying Australia looked like it does today when the Aboriginies had it all to themselves. The people south of the equator that lack European input are exactly what I am talking about. These people are considered civilised even in today's world. The infamous shanty towns that look little different from African villages pictured contain civilised people from what I am led to believe - are they literate? I mean, Brazil and south America in general have input from Spanish and Portuguese, so Europeans still very much at work in these parts. But some people still don't get it, it seems.
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Samhain
Full Member
Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 17:15:28 GMT -5
I referred to him as a parasite living off European legacies yet not having any respect for them and the people who contributed to them. So yes, someone who lacks any consideration for the endevours of so many great people and instantly dismisses them through being unaware of the history behind, whilst electing themselves as experts on their history, do indeed deserve to be called parasites. It only becomes personal when it actually applies to the individual. Obviously in this case it does.
Oh right. So I expect to see you figure in all the threads that you consider to be getting out of hand and are not remaining civil( by civil do you mean a bashful, humble, self-deprecating northern European?).
Now that's not quite right now, is it? I referred to him as a parasite for reasons much more deeper than Geldof's. Much deeper. I am sure people have been referred to as much worse, but you will of course have over-looked this.
I don't think it was as cut and dried as that. You seem to be mopping up Human's mess everywhere. Captain is perhaps one of the most reasonable and intelligent posters you will ever encounter.
Notice how all the worthy material I have provided has been glided over, but you seem to creating a drama out of nothing.
His entire approach suggest to me that he is immature in the sense of his age and ability to cope with the pace of the debates. It appears you recognise him and are attempting to disguise his faults.
It was in the RM forum I made the comment that I could not see the likelihood of a someone from Ethiopia having both Scottish and Finnish ancestry. You opened a post with this quote which was obiously aimed at me, but for reasons that don't interest me. Perhaps you were already setting the tone for some conflict? Hoping I would get all fiesty and the moderators would have no choice but to boot me out. When that failed you then tried to state I was insulting victims of the Tsumani when clearly I wasn't. Then you now resort to accusing myself of being unfair to Human. But wait, perhaps this kind of conversational chat is enough to provoke a moderator to react more than anything else?
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Samhain
Full Member
Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.
Posts: 230
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Post by Samhain on Mar 29, 2005 17:32:57 GMT -5
The "shanty towns" are poor, but they're absolutely and completely different than anything that existed thousands of years ago. Guess what? They have TV's, stereos, schools and whatnot in shanty towns. Also, wasn't the discussion about northern Europe? Why are you talking about Portuguese and Spanish influence then? Also, when you said the ammusing thing about everybody south of the Equator living like thousands of years ago you didn't specify that it was "everybody except for the 99.99% that aren't wild indians". And so what if there was European input? Who said there wasn't? I mean, I, as a person, am part of this European input in America. Every society learns something from a different one. Romans left their input all over Europe. Greeks left their input in Rome and all over the mediterranean. Celts/Indo Europeans taught western Europeans how to do a lot of stuff. And so on. And why the hell did you include a picture of Calcutta in your post??? The discussion has not remained purely along the lines of Northern Europeans/Hindus. It has now come to include a whole manner of people, because that's the direction debates concerning civilisations normally takes. People cannot associate ancient culture without trying to link it to somewhere else/ If Britons, as northern Europeans, have something worthwhile, hell let's plant berbers, blacks, native Indians and "mediterraneans" in there. You've outlined it all yourself above; culture rubs off when populations interect with one another and borrow ideas often by adding a unique contribution to advance it. Not once have I undermined the contributions of the Romans to Britain, but by the same token, Romans are not the monopoly of British foundations - not by a long shot. Not once has anyone referenced the expertise of an archaeologist etc on this, it's all ones own tainted opinion. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but exactly how many books have you and Human actually read on British history? How much research have you actually done on this? Also, name me populations south of the equator that you think have something to offer that can be considered advanced in the west. That is, populations who have not had European input (Australia, south Africa, etc) PS- does that shanty town of calcutta differ from the shanty towns of Brazil?
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Post by Human on Mar 29, 2005 20:10:04 GMT -5
it has always amazed me the arrogance with which Northern Europeans view the rest of the World, including Southern Europeans, Middle Easteners, Hindu and Chinese. Gosh! Northern Europe History actually began so to say 'yesterday', when the Roman legions conquered Central Europe and England. wow! how can such a superior people have come to full civilization 'yesterday'? were they not supposed then by their superiority to be leading the civilizing process from early on? how could such a superior intellectual potential be hidden for such a long time the Roman/Greek combo was indeed the only original European contribution to the world. all other European contributions (especially the Northern one) can be in one way or another related to the Roman and Greeks. as early as i was a child, as early as i could read, as early as i learnt the Celtic area was inhabited by people who lacked any higher morality (so much so that apart from elfs and gnomes, they have not left to us any spirituality or something), who practiced human sacrifices in utter illiterace, gathering big blocks of stones, were indeed no such a big thing, and that believing they are superior, as they seem to believe, and as they indeed behave towards other Europeans and Middle Easterners and Hindu, Chinese, etc, was as stupid as stupidity can get. only 500 years back, whilst Renaissance Italy was flourishing, the densely populated Britain was still absorbing Roman/Greek/Jewish legacy. the Scandinavians had just been baptized. on the other hand, and back into topic, the Hindu people have had a very long continous history. i cannot compare the moral teachings of barbarous people with Hindu classics (e.g, see this link eawc.evansville.edu/essays/de.htm), a much older and yet much deeper and original set of thoughts. India is one of the few nations which has a continuous documented history, says the link given above. In contrast, we have to rely on Tacitus and Julius Caesar (and other Romans, and also Greeks) to tells us more about the Northern Europeans.
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