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Post by alexandrian on Mar 10, 2005 19:33:44 GMT -5
Western Civilization is the same as European civilization. It began with the Minoans, who were not Hellenes but certainly influenced them more than the Egyptians did. I guess it could be argued there is a Minoan-Egyptian connection, but I won't go there. I don't wanna sound like some Egypto-centrist, but if you notice Minoan architecture is extremely similar to egyptian architecture and their wall reliefs are very similar. They both painted themselves in a reddish hue, however modern day Greeks are white, not red. There was a site about it, but I can't find it.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 10, 2005 19:34:19 GMT -5
Another looser and lier, you are getting many!! look man, we just share the same continent: Africa, the rest, we are like the day and the night, good bye looser ;D Exactly.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 11, 2005 0:59:20 GMT -5
I don't wanna sound like some Egypto-centrist, but if you notice Minoan architecture is extremely similar to egyptian architecture and their wall reliefs are very similar. They both painted themselves in a reddish hue, however modern day Greeks are white, not red. There was a site about it, but I can't find it. I believe the Egyptians and Minoans were related racially, too, but I'm not gonna go into that.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 11, 2005 1:39:02 GMT -5
There is no proof to show that they were related to East Africans at all. Until you show me any genetic study that comes to that conclusion, I don't believe you [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10090902&dopt=Citation[/ftp] Long story short, nile delta genetic corridor primarily moving south to north untill the last couple thousand years, interconnections between egypt and nubia and egypt and sudan. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9158841[/ftp] More evidence of the nile as genetic corridor connection SSA and NA [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12687584[/ftp] SSA Y chromsome haplotypes found in 13.9 percent of egyptian overall higher in the south. Happy now? Some how I doubt it.
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Post by Buddyryvall on Mar 11, 2005 9:40:35 GMT -5
Archaeologists date the beginnings of Minoan culture to about 2800 B.C.E. Some 800 years later, the Minoans had advanced to the point where they had developed a form of writing and amenities such as drains, stoves, and bathtubs. I don't wanna sound like some Egypto-centrist, but if you notice Minoan architecture is extremely similar to egyptian architecture and their wall reliefs are very similar. They both painted themselves in a reddish hue, however modern day Greeks are white, not red. There was a site about it, but I can't find it. Minoan art and Egyptian art were somewhat similar. This is because the Minoans use to trade with the Egyptians, as well as people of the Middle east, Cyprus and many areas around the coast of the eastern Mediterranean. However the Minoans developed their own style of art. They both painted themselves in a reddish hue, however modern day Greeks are white, not red. There was a site about it, but I can't find it. The Ancient Minoans werent red either , the men were depicted as being darker because they were tanned. They painted only the males in a redish hue, the woman were always painted white. The way the figures, the landscapes and the complementary themes are depicted on the frescoes reveals Egyptian and Syrian-Palestinian influences. The relatively small number of available colours led to the adoption of certain conventions drawn from Egyptian frescoes. Thus, the males were painted red and women white. This exaggerates the difference between outdoor and indoor habits of life. This reflects Egyptian influence. The Egyptians, however, rarely colored the wall paintings of their women purely white; except in the case of goddesses and such rare mortals as Hetep Heres II, the usual color is a pinkish yellow. Above: Males are depicted as a dark redish colour Above: the females are a White colour above: King Minos is depicted as white, probably because he stayed indoors. I believe the Egyptians and Minoans were related racially, too The Minoans and the ancient Egyptians were not the same people, there is no evidence to back this claim up. No one knows where the Minoans originatef from. All we know is that migrants of unknown origin had settled the islands of Crete, Cyprus, and the Cyclades by about 3000 B.C. The religion of the Minoans was also different from the Egyptians, The rich iconographic heritage of the Minoan period gives us a fairly clear idea of Minoan religion. Its main expression was the cult of a female goddess which seems to be closely related to the cult of the goddess Astarte in the Middle East. The goddess marries a young god who is born and dies every year, in tune with the natural process of regeneration. Even their pottery was different from the Egyptians, their potttery was unique in the Medeteranean: www.ime.gr/chronos/02/crete/images/texnes/keramiki/mar_rito.gif [/img] Six-foot-tall pithoi, or storage jars, at the Palace of Knossos. The jars, dating from the 18th century B.C., were used to store honey, wine and food As for the architecture judge for yourself. Heres some pics of the Palace of King Minos, Knossos c. 1600 B.C. Above:Water collection drainage system Palace of King Minos, Knossos c. 1500 B.C. Palace of King Minos, Knossos c. 1500 B.C. The queen's bathroom and bathtub, adjacent to the room above. There also was a room with a toilet that flushed. Note the elegant symbolic waves as a decorative frieze. As you can see, their architecture was also quite different from the Egyptians and from anyone other gruop of people. Here is a very informative site on the racial type of the Ancient Minoans: dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/minoans/ And to answer the question of this thread, No the Ancient Egyptians werent a Western civilisation, they were a native north african/Berber civilisation.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 11, 2005 15:23:55 GMT -5
I know they weren't the same people. I just think there were broader connections between Old Europeans and North Africans than we give credit. All because of the deep blue Mediterranean Sea. I think a better and more answerable question would be whether or not the Pelasgians were the same people as the Minoans. I think they were very closely related if not identical.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 11, 2005 16:39:41 GMT -5
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10090902&dopt=Citation[/ftp] Long story short, nile delta genetic corridor primarily moving south to north untill the last couple thousand years, interconnections between egypt and nubia and egypt and sudan. It clearly says: "Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan." WHich means there were significant differences between the three populations in question. Keep in mind this was a study done in southern egypt. South of Luxor has a decent-sized population of people with recent negroid ancestry. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9158841[/ftp] More evidence of the nile as genetic corridor connection SSA and NA THat one talks about Meroitic Nubia, not Egypt. Irrelevent. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12687584[/ftp] SSA Y chromsome haplotypes found in 13.9 percent of egyptian overall higher in the south. 13.9%. That's it! That shows nothing. If 13.9% of the population shows a sub-Saharan chromosome, then over 85% do not. If anything it proves my point that the vast majority of ancient egyptians were not negroid, and the same is true today. Also, the study included Lower nubia, There percent would be even lower had Nubia, a land of non-Egyptians, not been included.
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Post by Human on Mar 11, 2005 16:44:42 GMT -5
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10090902&dopt=Citation[/ftp] Long story short, nile delta genetic corridor primarily moving south to north untill the last couple thousand years, interconnections between egypt and nubia and egypt and sudan. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9158841[/ftp] More evidence of the nile as genetic corridor connection SSA and NA [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12687584[/ftp] SSA Y chromsome haplotypes found in 13.9 percent of egyptian overall higher in the south. Happy now? Some how I doubt it. i agree that the river nile represents a link between central africa and north africa (extrapolating to the mediterranean sea, and middle east). not denying river niles huge extension, but anyway still so. theres must have always contact between people since the beginning of river nile until its end. for northern egyptians however it seems interactions in general would be more frequent (obviously condiering the distance) with other mediterranean places and the middle east, what does not exclude the rather continuous interactions along the river nile. a look at a map would help in this case.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 11, 2005 16:44:58 GMT -5
For Egypt and the Minoans, I don't know how accurate this is but here goes: www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/othercultures/egyptminoan.htmlI think the architecture looks very similar. Egyptians were the first people to utilize the use of the pillar or column, and the Minoans clearly followed suit. The drawing seem to have been done with similar dyes and in very similar styles, Minoan art seems much more similar to Egyptian art than it is to Greek art. Also, the Minoans painted men in a reddish hue and women in a whitish hue, which is what the Egyptians did as well. Lastly, in the Bible, it says that Caphtor (Crete) came out of Mizraim (Egypt). So that shows there had to be some relation between the two. I'm not gonna jump to any conclusions because I simply don't know enough about the topic, but it seems that Crete and Egypt had a lot of interaction. Was it the Cretans who established a trading colony in northern Egypt? Minoan pottery is quite unique though
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Post by Human on Mar 11, 2005 16:45:46 GMT -5
sorry ... contacts along the river nile from its beginning until its delta at the mediterranean.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 11, 2005 16:54:28 GMT -5
13.9 percent identifiable SSA y chromsome is certainly a significant level of admixture I don't beleive I have ever suggested that Egyptians are more then 20 percent SSA in origins. Your contention has allways been there is no signicant admixture. So which number is 13.9 closer to 20 or 0? Do the math, whose position does it support?
Thats your problem your an extremist and you can only see anyone who disagrees with as an extremist too. If someone doesn't think egptians are pure caucasian the must think their pure black in your twisted world veiw. Race isn't that simple its fuzzy category and Egypt is one of the areas were it gets especially fuzzy. The first article states exactly supports my position that egyptians are broadly caucasian but he nile delta is avenue of gene flow and allways has been. Furthermore it supports my supposition that gene flow was predominately south to north up untill the last couple thousand years which would indicate that AE were more admixed then modern egyptians.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 11, 2005 17:04:02 GMT -5
I have to agree with Faelcind here. The subject is very fuzzy. The Egyptians have such a long history who knows what kind of stuff might have happened that we don't know about.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 11, 2005 17:22:32 GMT -5
13.9 percent identifiable SSA y chromsome is certainly a significant level of admixture I don't beleive I have ever suggested that Egyptians are more then 20 percent SSA in origins. Your contention has allways been there is no signicant admixture. So which number is 13.9 closer to 20 or 0? Do the math, whose position does it support? I don't consider 13% very siginificant at all. I always expected it to be roughly around 8%, and 13 is closer to 8 than 20. Either way, if the AEs were black, then how did a whole race of people go from being 100% black to 86% non-black in a couple of millenia. It's not plausible. I never said the entire Egyptian population was pure Caucasoid, but I do disagree that all egyptians are mixed, which I believe is something you suggested. To me, 13.9% SSA admixture (including Lower Nubia, imagine that if that hadn't been included, the number would have been yes) only reaffirms my point.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 11, 2005 17:37:52 GMT -5
I never said egypt was black ever. All the best anthropological readings I have seen indicate that egypt has been caucasian as long as we can tell but with significant level of SSA admixture more so in the past then now. 13.9 percent is quite significant that a little more then 1/8 like having one SSA african great grandparent. Its also only one genetic system and the only least likely to show significant admixture as Y chromsomes genereally show the legacy of the dominant ethnicity more.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 11, 2005 17:43:48 GMT -5
All the best anthropological readings I have seen indicate that egypt has been caucasian as long as we can tell but with significant level of SSA admixture more so in the past then now. I can agree with that characterization. I suppose modern day Egyptians are lighter than their ancient counterparts. But don't you think that significant interaction with Sudanese and Nubians south of luxor would make egyptians there darker than their ancient counterparts? Anyway, 86% Caucasian is more than enough. And this also shows that not all Egyptians are mixed. Not even remotely.
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