Berber & Jewish race !?

[Berter]

@solomon, Thats a thread about the other laughable story!

Solomon Wrote :

It's funny to me how you doubt Jews have common ancestry, yet you have the audacity to assert there's some kind of Berber race, which is laughable (needless to say). But that's another story.

[Melnorme]

Relevant :

www.itineranceplus.com/english/culturalmemo2.asp?CulturalID=18

Don't know how accurate this is. The part about having 'no Israeli blood' is disproved by genetics.

The origin of Moroccan Jews .

The origin of Moroccan Jews is manifold and not very well known. Some might have come from Libya in the fourth century B.C.; others persecuted by the Spanish Visigoths could have taken refuge in Morocco in the fourth century A.D. To this effect they do not form a homogeneous group but a mere religious family with no racial characteristics and most probably with no Israeli blood. In fact among Moroccan Jews we could find many different types; the Hebrew type was rather rare, we could see fair people mostly in the "Rif" and a majority of people with darker complexion in the Atlas. Actually their aspect hardly distinguished them from their Muslim neighbours.

Some authors distinguish two groups : The Foresteros and the Plitchims . The Plitchims might have come from Palestine as far back as the Antiquity, whereas the Foresteros might have been chased out of Spain. What is most likely is that the Berber Jews were in fact indigenous. Old Berber tribes turned Jewish (where and how, no one knows). Tradition tells of seven or ten missionary Rabbis who came from Jerusalem a long time ago, their tombs can be found by tens scattered in many tribes of the Atlas.

We are entitled to think that the conversion of Berbers to Judaism was initiated before the beginning of the Christian era , and was carried on until the eve of Almoravid rule (eleventh century). Aghmat Ailane a wealthy town in the Ourika valley during the seventh century was exclusively populated with Jews (Laoust). The ebb took place under the Almoravids and Almohads (eleventh to thirteen century) who have thoroughly unified Morocco under the Muslim banner. “After the Almohads all tribes are Muslims no more are Christians. The Berber Jews who subsist have to pay tribute to the Muslims” (Laoust)

[Melnorme]

Berbers and Jews aren't 'races', but Berbers are closer to fitting the definition.

[Faelcind]

I voted niether I think if Race is going to be a usefall taxonomic term then we have to be clear about what level of differenetion constitutes a race, this confusion of ethnicity and race if you ask me.

[Berter]

Melnorme said:

Berbers and Jews aren't 'races', but Berbers are closer to fitting the definition.

Thats my thought, Mel!

[Berter]

Faelcind said:

I voted niether I think if Race is going to be a usefall taxonomic term then we have to be clear about what level of differenetion constitutes a race, this confusion of ethnicity and race if you ask me.

My question is about the existence or not of the berber and jewish RACES. I do very well differentiate a race from its associated ethnicity.

[Faelcind]

Niether Berbers nor Jews are biological distinct enough from other peoples to deserve there own race they are both part of the caucasian race.

[Berter]

Faelcind said:

Niether Berbers nor Jews are biological distinct enough from other peoples to deserve there own race they are both part of the caucasian race.

Might be I should use the term 'Sub-race' !?

[Faelcind]

Sub-race is certainly a more logical category, though I am not sure if it has any taxonomic worth at least as it is is commonly used. We certainly don't distinguish sub sub species in other mammals. Still I wouldn't say berbers or jews are distinct sub races both are ethnicities which have people of multiple sub races within them especially jews.

[Berter]

Faelcind said:

Still I wouldn't say berbers or jews are distinct sub races both are ethnicities which have people of multiple sub races within them especially jews.

Thats my point!

[Faelcind]

Glad I could make it for you Berter. I hope I was sufficiently eloquent .

[Berter]

I wonder the silence of the JEW Solomon ! ;D ;D

[Solomon]

Uh, well, since I literally just discovered this absurd excuse for a thread, I'll comment.

You clearly misinterpreted my original response. Basically, you've shown yourself to be cynical of the notion that Jews have preserved their Levantine heritage, yet have the nerve to claim that there's a Berber race.

I never said there's a Jewish race; I defy you to find one post where I've made this claim. Hopefully that clears things up, or do I have to say it in French for you?

Also, Melnorme has no doubt taken into consideration the fact that Berbers have one language, while Jews, until recently, have spoken different languages (i.e. Arabic, Yiddish, Ladino).

[Solomon]

Faelcind said:

both are ethnicities which have people of multiple sub races within them especially jews.

This applies equally to Berbers, perhaps more so, because variation is greater (i.e Touaregs, Kabyles). Since many Berbers are mixed, it's not accurate to simply label them Caucasian. Jews, save Ethiopian Jewry, have almost no SSA ancestry, so Caucasian is fitting.

[k5125]

I don't know enough about Berbers. I haven't seen enough of them to even see what they really look like, so I won't comment.

Jews however, particularly the Sephardic ones from Morocco, look distinct from the arabs, and yes I do think there is something "Hebrew" about them.

Aryeh Deri is a perfect example of this.

members.tripod.com/~Church-of-Rabin/shas.htm

In my opinion these Jews look like the typical stereotyped one. Dark, semitic facial features, not too dark, not too light.

They could pass as VERY DARK ashkenazim...obviously not as light ashkenazim.

Anyway, I think "Hebrew" descibes the people in this picture perfectly.

Jews are a mediterranean people which makes them caucasoid.