Does Black History include the pyramids of Egypt?

[Kame]

The Ancient Egyptians were not Negroid, nor were the Nubians or Ethiopians.

WTF? Are you saying the nubians were not negroid?......I'm not even gonna comment on that, that is one of the most ignorant statements I've heard all week, you made my day....here ya go.....

I'm sorry, but Negroids (Blacks as we know them today) possess little in the way of civilization-building history. That is why the blacks are probably most hated by East Asians, particularly the Japanese. African-Americans, have NO history. They are barely a people,

Ummm no. You must be one of those guys who think blacks only chuck spears and build mud huts eh? Well my supremecist delusionist friend, I will refer you to my misconceptions of africa (part2) thread, nuff said.

Ever been to Japan buddy? If you did, you'd notice that Hip-hop is blowing up over there news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3324409.stm (I heard dudes are still BBoying over there, LOL), my friends in the navy say black guys get serious love over yonder, (church is in session now).
Never mind black people probably are the most emulated around the world, almost singlehandedly shaping world pop culture. They created blues, jazz, hip-hop, soul, funk,rock-n-roll, reggae, HELL every cool music genre black folks created. If it were'nt for them, we'd all be playing polka and walzting. Though I'd give you classical, riverdancing and maybe grunge. ouch.

They do not consider themselves African or Black, and despise African-Americans.

Dude, how many somali's/ethiopians do you know? any way, the ones I know and most that i see consider themselves black and african, yeah they're mixed, but so are african-americans, dominicans, cubans, etc, that does'nt keep people and America from calling them "black" now does it? I see somali's and ethiopians at the clubs and black social scene all the time in san francisco and my general area, they are black as hell. If you got away from yur keyboard and did a little interaction with the outside world rather roast in your ignorance and bigotry daily, maybe you would'nt sound so "ig'nant" and misinformend.

'they have no heritage.'

Well, for a people who were stripped of their names, language, history, their very identity. Considering all the things african-americans have done, and how far they've come, I'd say they're doing pretty damn well for themselves.

Unfortunately, the Blacks kept wrecking his pizza business in Sacramento, telling him to 'get back on the boat' and calling him 'n****r'.

Nah, they just sound like your everyday garden variety human slime, they were'nt looking for him, he was probably in the wrong place in the wrong time. Don't stereotype sir.

Aside from a few countries, Africa is a collection of states and an even larger collection of nations.

Naaww Really?

Furthermore your statement about the civilization building proclivities of the actually negroid people is ridiculous and contrary to fact in fact aside from Ethiopia most of africa's civiliazation could be attributed to Negroid africans, The Songhai were negroid, Ghana was negroid, mali and great Zimbabwe too.

Really, I did'nt even have to say it, someone else (a white guy) said it before I did, folks sure are timely around here.

Enough of this "I claim this civilization" "Where's you civilzation, crap"
WTF have you created lately "imperator"? Probably nothing, maybe a couple of well-written (ignorant) internet MB essay's on the lack of black acheivement, but you did'nt you did'nt formulate any theories or thesis on quantum dynamics or won any nobel prizes, your a regular joe, who is coasting off the acheivements of people who just look like you, have a nice cup of STFU.

[Faelcind]

Kame said:

Never mind black people probably are the most emulated around the world, almost singlehandedly shaping world pop culture. They created blues, jazz, hip-hop, soul, funk,rock-n-roll, reggae, HELL every cool music genre black folks created.

Blues and especially Rock and roll were heavily influenced by white styles of "country" music itself descended form british and Irish folk music. Its funny that the blues is charecterized by the european guitar while traditional country is charecterized by the Banjo a west african instrument. None the less there is no argument that african americans and carribeans have been the largest force in shaping global pop music in this century, the british would be second.

[human2]

Imperator-et-Rex said:

This is especially directed at Kame. The Ancient Egyptians were not Negroid, nor were the Nubians or Ethiopians. In fact, much of Africa (esp. the North) was Caucasian, due in part to an immense movement south.

3rd sentence in... I see this post is a waste of my time...

the original Nubians were "Caucasian" ... what a bunch of ignorant, self-flatterment crap

[alexandrian]

k5125 said:

According to Burger King, it does.

On the side of the burger king bag this month, it says Salute to Black History, and I quote..

"Black history didn't just start with the Pyramids in Egypt or with the march to Washington..."

Now, at first I mocked this claim and was laughing, but I just talked to a black american online who says that many black americans do descend from the ancient Egyptians.

So now he has my curiousity going. At first I thought it was just a major goof up by Burger King, but is there really some validity to this claim afterall?

I mean, obviously, there was no doubt that at least some Egyptians were black, but I think the claim being made here is that the civilization itself was predominately black including the pharoahs and everyone else, which makes it part of Black History month.

What do you think about this?

This shit pisses me off. I'm seriously very f*cking angry about this. Burger Kind with its PC bullshit. The pyramids were built by Egyptian peasants completing their mandatory service to the nation before flood season, Negroes or Hebrews had very little to do with it.



As for Kame, never has a Greek compared the looks of the Egyptians to the Ethiopians. Herodotus only compares the physical features of the Egyptians to the Colchians, not to the EThiopians. If you're gonna tell me there were negroes in the caucasus, thats your problem. The Herodotus quotes if probably the best argument for non-black Egyptians, since it compares AEs to Cacausian peoples. Moreover, there was the similarity in circumcision drawn between Colchis, Egypt, and Ethiopia, if Herodotus was making circumcision comparisons to Ethiopia, then he would have obviously made physical comparisons to them, if they existed in the first place. But they didn't. When describing Ethiopians, he states they were the wooliest haired people of the world.


Look at quotes by Greco-Roman authors


The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724

The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.

-Arrian (Indica 6.9):




Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording:

As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.


Philostratus also described Egyptians as being "tall, lean, and medium-toned"
Haha, black my ass. This is bullshit and historical revisionism. No genetic study has ever concluded Egyptians, modern or ancient, were black. Burger King has to stop this misinformation now. I don't think Nubians are Caucasian though. They're Negroes with significant Caucasoid admixture. They're portrayed as blacker than Egyptians everywhere.

[Kame]

They're Negroes with significant Caucasoid admixture.

You must have "only-white-people-or mixed-with-white people-can-create-great-civilizations-syndrome" don't worry your not alone, I'll refer you the a great group of like-minds www.stormfront.org and www.vnn.com

This shit pisses me off. I'm seriously very f*cking angry about this.

Are you seriously losing sleep over this? Hmmm how about some nyquil or something? This could be a serious condition...........

As for Kame, never has a Greek compared the looks of the Egyptians to the Ethiopians.

Ok before I was sorta giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I think your a true dumbass or just a regular bigot. Read this quote again and maybe you'll see the connection this time:

"it is undoubtedly a fact that the Colchians are of Egyptian descent. I noticed this myself before I heard anyone else mention it ... My own idea on the subject was based first on the fact that they have black skins and woolly hair... and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practiced circumcision."

[alexandrian]

Kame said:

Ok before I was sorta giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I think your a true dumbass or just a regular bigot. Read this quote again and maybe you'll see the connection this time:

How did that quote prove anything? It didn't compare the physical features of the Colchians/Egyptians to those of the Ethiopians, it merely said all three practiced circumcision. That says nothing racially. The Hebrews too practiced circumcision, does that mean they're related to Ethiopians or Colchian/Egyptians? No, of course not. Face it, your wrong buddy. Why don't you try and find some real Negroes you can be proud of. I say Nubians have significant Caucasoid input because most of the Nubians I know in Egypt (the ones who moved to Cairo and Alex) have black skin and caucasian features. How do you respond to the three ancient testimonies, citing physical features?

If the egyptians were so black, why did they portray themselves as significantly lighter and with noticeably different features than the negroid Nubians?

[alexandrian]

Kame said:

Are you seriously losing sleep over this? Hmmm how about some nyquil or something? This could be a serious condition...........



Ok before I was sorta giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I think your a true dumbass or just a regular bigot.

I'm not losing sleep over this because I know I'm Egyptian and most people i know consider me Caucasian. If I'm caucasian, I'm assuming my ancestors were too. As for whether I'm a dumbass or a bigot, I'll take the latter ;D but only if I have to make a choice.

[BioMan]

Imperator-et-Rex said:

This is especially directed at Kame. The Ancient Egyptians were not Negroid, nor were the Nubians or Ethiopians.

You lost all credibilty in that long post of yours once you stated this.



Then I looked at your quote and realized that your one of those low class stormfront trash spueing out trash like this-

In fact, much of Africa (esp. the North) was Caucasian, due in part to an immense movement south. East Africans are classified as Caucasians, although obviously there has been large Negroid admixture.

[Kame]

I'm not losing sleep over this because I know I'm Egyptian and most people i know consider me Caucasian.

Good for you. I could care less if I were "caucasian" or not.

As for whether I'm a dumbass or a bigot, I'll take the latter but only if I have to make a choice

Hmmm maybe you are both? they're not mutally exclusive

If the egyptians were so black, why did they portray themselves as significantly lighter and with noticeably different features than the negroid Nubians?

You just contradicted yourself. At first you said the nubians had caucasian features, then you say they were negroid? How can I feel defeated by a guy that can't even put an argument together?

What is astounding is that there is greater morphological distance between human races than there are between the two chimpanzee species or between gorilla species/subspecies.

Southern Boundary. Raised in the eighth year of the reign of Sesostris III, king of Upper and Lower Egypt, to whom be life throughout all ages. No Negro shall cross this boundary by water or by land, by ship or with his flocks, save for the purpose of trade or to make purchases in some post

Anyways, on to more important things. Eufrenio quoted "RACE" and gave me some old ass inscription, (probably made up) of "negroids" . Quoting a review of that book home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/miele.htm, they make the assertion that there is more morphological distance between human races than species of chimp. One only need to look at gentic distances melanesians and west africans to see that that statement is complete bunk. Phenotype similarity does not neccessarily translate into genetic affinity.

1. Anyone who quotes "RACE" (by sarich and miele), which is obviously bigoted and skewed in a certain direction (by which I'm sure your aware of) , is not credible.

2. Negro is a modern term, derived from latin which means "black", it was used to describe africans upon the arrival of the europeans, I don't think ancient egyptians used that terminology.

3. Did'nt sesostris III 's family come from upper egypt which was known for heavy nubian influence? I don't know just a thought...don't ask.... I'm a history buff.

[eufrenio]

Kame said:

Anyways, on to more important things. Eufrenio quoted "RACE" and gave me some old ass inscription, (probably made up) of "negroids" . Quoting a review of that book home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/miele.htm, they make the assertion that there is more morphological distance between human races than species of chimp. One only need to look at gentic distances melanesians and west africans to see that that statement is complete bunk. Phenotype similarity does not neccessarily translate into genetic affinity.

1. Anyone who quotes "RACE" (by sarich and miele), which is obviously bigoted and skewed in a certain direction (by which I'm sure your aware of) , is not credible.

Vincent Sarich is an anthropology profesor at Berkeley; Miele is senior editor with Skeptic Magazine.
I´ll say their credentials are outstanding. Your choice of the review is biased, as Matt Nuenke is a well known and self-professed White Nationalist.
Here´s a couple of reviews:
www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=86836
www.vdare.com/sailer/sarich_miele.htm

2. Negro is a modern term, derived from latin which means "black", it was used to describe africans upon the arrival of the europeans, I don't think ancient egyptians used that terminology.

Of couse, Egyptians didn´t use the term "negro" nor "boundary": these are translations from the original into modern English.
Here´s another source:

the king had inscribed on a great stele at Semna erected in year 8 of his rule, now in Berlin, "I carried off their women, I carried off their subjects, went forth to their wells, smote their bulls; I reaped their grain, and set fire thereto". In other words, he killed their men, enslaved their women and children, burnt their crops and poisoned their wells. The stele also provides that no Nubians were allowed to take their herds or boats to the north of the specified border.

www.touregypt.net/featurestories/senusret3.htm

I´ve bein googling the famous stele: it is sometimes translated as "Kushite", and sometimes as "Nubian" or "Black".
Another translation:

translation from a boundary stele from the reign of Sesostris III, as given by Breasted in "A History of Egypt", 1909 (p. 184)
"SOUTHERN BOUNDARY MADE IN THE YEAR 8, UNDER THE MAJESTY OF THE KING OF UPPER AND LOWER EGYPT, SES-OSTRIS III, WHO IS GIVEN LIFE FOR EVER AND EVER;-
IN ORDER TO PREVENT THAT ANY NEGRO SHOULD CROSS IT BY LAND, WITH A SHIP, OR ANY HERDS OF THE NEGROES; EXCEPT A NEGRO WHO SHALL CROSS IT TO DO TRADING...OR WITH A COMMISSION. ALL KIND TREAT-MENT SHALL BE ACCORDED THEM, BUT WITHOUT ALLOWING A SHIP OF THE NEGROES TO PASS BY HEH [Semneh] GO-ING DOWNSTREAM, FOREVER."

www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1202

The one I quoted above in my prervious post from the Sarich/Miele book relies on Frank Snowden, hardly a disreputable source for you,Kame, as he was a US Black.

Southern Boundary. Raised in the eighth year of the reign of Sesostris III, king of Upper and Lower Egypt, to whom be life throughout all ages. No Negro shall cross this boundary by water or by land, by ship or with his flocks, save for the purpose of trade or to make purchases in some post

More on the Southern boundary (notice the term "Iunu" to refer to these Southern enemies):

The kings of the 12th dynasty experienced trouble on their southern borders from the people of Kush. It was Senusret/Sesostris (III) who led campaigns into that region, made Semna his southern capital and set up his stela with a duplicate proclamation on `Uronarti'. The text of the stela admonished his people to show no fear:

"Stela made in year sixteen - third month of winter when the fortress `Repelling the Iunu' was built ... to desist after being attacked boldens the heart of the enemy. To be aggressive of him causes him to retire. If one is aggressive against him he turns his back; if one retreats he falls into aggression. They are not people one must fear; they are wrteches, broken of heart. My majesty has seen them, there is no untruth. I have captured their wives and I have brought back their inhabitants, ascended to their wells and slain their bulls. A bit overstated drawing of Buhen fortress?I have pulled up their barley and set the flame in it. As my father lives for me; I speak in truth, without a word of boasting issuing from my mouth.
Now as for every son of mine who shall strengthen this boundary which my Majesty LPH has made, he is my son and he is born to my Majesty. Good is a son, the helper of his father, and who strenghens the boundary of him that begat him. Now as for him who shall lose it and shall not fight on behalf of it, he is not my son and he is not born to me.
Now my Majesty has caused the erection of a statue of My Majesty on this frontier in order that you might preserve in it and that you might fight on behalf of it. ..."

Desert life was harsh and resources were limited. It is no wonder that desert dwelling tribes thought of ways to supplement their resources by staging raids against caravans and popluation centers in their surroundings. It is known from Semna dispatches that all movements of strangers were recorded by Egyptian patrols.

www.specialtyinterests.net/journey_to_nubia.html

Here´s the stele itself:

edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt2/band4/image/02041360.jpg
sources for texts:
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/EEFtexts.html

3. Did'nt sesostris III 's family come from upper egypt which was known for heavy nubian influence? I don't know just a thought...don't ask.... I'm a history buff.

He was form Thebes:

According to Manetho, the 12th Dynasty comprised seven kings from Thebes, who ruled for a total of 160 years in the version of Africanus, and for 245 years in the version of Eusebius.

www.ancient-egypt.org/history/11_13/12.html
www.ancient-egypt.org/kings/1205_sesostris_iii/history.html


Here are more unbiased sources about race in Egypt:

www.focusanthro.org/essays/jackson--03-04.html
www.geocities.com/enbp/

[eufrenio]

I found an interesting thread about this matter, with serious factual evidence:

The stela is the Boundary Stela of Senwosret III, which reads:

(This is from the Senwosret Stela in the Berlin Museum, No. 14753):

"Here is the frontier to the south, which is fixed in the eighth year
of the reign of Senwosret III, given life-stability-health forever.
In
order that it not be permitted for any Nubian to cross it, except
those ships filled with cattle, goats and asses belonging to the
Nubians, and except that the Nubian comes to trade by barter in the
land of Aken. _To these, on the contrary, ever shall favor be
allowed_. But otherwise it shall not be permitted to any vessel of
the Nubian to touch at the land of Heh* in transit evermore."
(Emphasis _ _ mine).

It continues, specifically, as translated by Lichtheim:

"...Since the Nubian listens to the word of mouth,
To answer him is to make him retreat.
Attack him, he will turn his back,
Retreat, he will start attacking.
They are not people one respects,
They are wretches, craven-hearted."

IMO, this is more a reflection of Senwosret III's description of his
military strategy in dealing with the Nubians, as _a warring enemy_,
noting that they retreat upon attack and attack upon the local army
being pulled back. He had said earlier in the stela, as part of _his_
warring strategy....

"I am a king who speaks and acts
What my heart plans is done by my arm.
One who attacks to conquer, who is swift to succeed,
In whose heart a plan does not slumber.
Considerate to clients, steady in mercy,
Merciless to the foe who attacks him.
One who attacks him who would attack,
Who stops when one stops,
Who replies to a matter as befits it,
To stop when attacked is to make bold the foe's heart,
Attack is valor, retreat is cowardice,
A coward is here who is driven from his border..."
(thence begins the lines, above)

* Miriam Lichtheim notes the following on the identification of "Heh"
with Semna:

(Referring to this particular Stela of Year 8): "...It says that all
Nubian traffic from the south must halt at Heh; that Nubians wishing
to trade at Iken ["Aken" in the quoted text - KGG] will be permitted
to proceed by an overland route; but no river traffic north of Heh
will be allowed. In fact, this general prohibition of movement beyond
Heh, with the specific exception of overland trading travel to Iken,
proves that Heh was south of Iken. Hence the text of the stela of
Year 8 reinforces the identification of Heh with Semna, as had
previously been understood...It goes without saying that overland
trading traffic was easy to control and presented no threat." (p.
120, _Ancient Egyptian Literature, I: Old and Middle Kingdom_).

Nicolas Grimal, in his _A History of Ancient Egypt_,1992,
particularly notes these stelae boundaries as part of economic and
sovereignty boundary issues, saying:

"The long period of military inactivity in Nubia during the two
preceding reigns [of Senwosret I and Senwosret II - KGG] had
encouraged
the Sudanese tribes to move gradually north of the Third Cataract.
Seostris III therefore took urgent steps to deal with this threat. he
began by enlarging the canal Merenre [of the 6th Dynasty- KGG] had
built to allow boats to pass through the rapids at Aswan. Then, in
the eighth, tenth and sixteenth year of his reign, he sent military
expeditions against Kush. In the nineteenth year of his reign the
Egyptians were able to travel by boat up to the Second Cataract, for
the campaigns of the eighth and sixteenth regnal years had allowed the
southern border [of Egypt - KGG] to be established at Semna [which is
called Heh in the quoted stela, above, BTW - KGG]. This frontier was
reinforced by a chain of eight mud-brick fortresses between Semna and
Buhen (at the northern end (called Lower Nubia)..." (p.168)

The economic and sovereignty rationale for such boundary clashes seem
clear, for as Malek and Baines say in their _Atlas of Ancient Egypt_
(2000):

"Between the first and second cataracts lay Lower Nubia, which was
always a prime target for incorporation into Egypt. Early dynastic
rock inscriptions and reliefs in the second cataract area show
Egyptian interest in it at that date. In the 4th and 5th Dynasties
there was almost no settled population in Lower Nubia. An Egyptian
settlement at Buhen north of the second cataract implies hegemony, if
not rule. In the 6th Dynasty the Egyptians yielded to the local
inhabitants, but control was regained in the 11th Dynasty and again at
the end of the 17th....

Lower Nubia seems to have been regarded as by Egyptian by right, and
was significant for access to raw materials, principally hard stones
and gold, in the desert to either side of the Nile. At an early
period it was used as a source of wood, but it can never have been
agriculturally important, as the cultivable area is no more than a
narrow strip on either side of the river. It was also, however, the
route through which came many of the African products prized by the
Egyptians. These included spices, ivory, ebony, ostrich feathers, and
certain species of baboon; pygmies were also traded occasionally, and
figured in the stereotyped landscape of the Nile in Classical
antiquity. It is not known what the Egyptians paid in return for all
this, as virtually no archaeological evidence for trade with Egypt has
so far been found in sub-Saharan Africa..." (p. 20).

Further, Senwosret III may have had mercenaries from Nubia, but not
from
the same area as referred to in the Stela (the Egyptians distinguished
about 5 different types of enemy Nubian groups, and a smaller number
of
"loyal" Nubian peoples).

Egyptians tended to recruit some of their mercenaries from the Medjay
tribes, which existed in the western deserts near Nubia, but who were
a
nomadic tribe, known for their archery and fighting skills. This
occurred for many years, and it is thought it may have been the Medjay
who alerted Kamose of the Nubian-Hyksos alliance during the civil war
of
the 17th- 18th Dynasties to free Egypt from Hyksos hegemony.

Eventually, the Medjay were retained by the Egyptian royal house as
protectors of the western lands of Egypt, to the point where the term
"medjay" come into Egyptian as a term for a security force (Hannig
2000:
839b-840a; 1550b-1551a).

See on this:

Baines, J. and J. Malek. 2000. _Cultural Atlas of Ancient Egypt_.
(Rev.
ed.) New York: Checkmark Books.

Grimal, N. 1992. _A History of Ancient Egypt_. I. Shaw, transl.
Oxford:
Blackwell.

Hannig, R. 2000. _Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Gro￟es Handw￶rterbuch
Deutsch-ￄgyptisch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.) Lexica 3_. Kulturegeschichte
der
Antiken Welt Band 86. Mainz: von Zabern.

Lichtheim, M. 1975._Ancient Egyptian Literature. Volume I: The Old and
Middle Kingdoms_. Berkeley: University of California.

HTH.


--
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, ASOR, EES, SSEA

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

www.griffis-consulting.com

www.seriousliving.net/new-2780229-478.html

[Berter]

Kame said:

WTF? Are you saying the nubians were not negroid?......I'm not even gonna comment on that, that is one of the most ignorant statements I've heard all week, you made my day....here ya go.....

Have you ever heard of the french foreign legion !?...
www.foreignlegionlife.com/
and if you can read french--- www.legionetrangere.fr/leg/default_zone/fr/html/page3680.html

Kame, Drakstarr,Bioman, etc. : Posts writen in a good english; thats all you have to offer. I have noted a incredible lack of logic in all your posts. And please stop multiplying your self, your writing style is easily recogniseable.

Dont you see the 'racial' difference btween those on the carriage (a pharoah, probably) and the black slaves in that pic !?

[human2]

The Kushites, if their tapestry is any indication, didn't have any "Caucasian" in them.

[alexandrian]

Kame said:

You just contradicted yourself. At first you said the nubians had caucasian features, then you say they were negroid? How can I feel defeated by a guy that can't even put an argument together?

i never contradicted myself. I said the modern Nubians I knew today (in Cairo and Alex) have black skin and Caucasian features. The ancient ones, according to the egyptians, had clear negroid features that were portrayed as very different from the features of the egyptians.

[IfTheLightTakesUs]

This thread needs to get LOCKED.

I think it is in the best interest of the board for everyone to stop replying to this troll, especially the Egyptians/North Africans, WE know who built the pyramids, we don't have to convince some dirty, self-hating *racial-slur I don't want to get banned * of the truth. Let him believe what he wants, then he'll go back to raceandstuff, and we can have better discussions.