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Post by nockwasright on Jan 24, 2005 5:57:22 GMT -5
Falecind: "Guns, Germs, and Steel ..." is not necessarily considered by all the last word on the subject "races and their achievement" ... on the contrary, many consider it just a useless effort to justify a politicaly correct vision of the world that simply conflicts with what any racional being can't avoid noticing (ie: race matters). What does Diamond say about the differences between Japanese and Ainu, by the way? Plus, everybody wants to fight about who's best, so you are spoiling the fun.
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Post by Melnorme on Jan 24, 2005 13:11:52 GMT -5
Falecind: "Guns, Germs, and Steel ..." is not necessarily considered by all the last word on the subject "races and their achievement" ... on the contrary, many consider it just a useless effort to justify a politicaly correct vision of the world that simply conflicts with what any racional being can't avoid noticing (ie: race matters). What does Diamond say about the differences between Japanese and Ainu, by the way? Plus, everybody wants to fight about who's best, so you are spoiling the fun. About time I found an excuse to shove this somewhere. Jared Diamond
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 24, 2005 13:55:35 GMT -5
"Caucasian" only has meaning if you qualify it. It's a point of reference. There has never been discreet races, as if we all stayed in our little boxes. Certainly, genetically and appearance-wise, the European is closer to say a Lebanese (and maybe half true of Egyptians ), but the regional populations (races) were formed out of complex interactions. For example, paternal lineage-wise, the Euro M173 (and derived R1A and R1b) and Asian lineages are both derived from the M9 lineage, while the Middle Eastern M89 lineage is the ancestral node of M9, so lineage-wise atleast, the Euro and Asian lineages on the father's side are closer to each other than they are to Middle Eastern M89 and Yap. It's has little meaning since this was a long time ago and there was many distortions (detachment, founder effects, ect.) and the European is still on average closer to a Lebanese or an Iraqi Jew, but my point is that the world is chaotically interconnected, and for him to claim Europe, he'd have to take a knife and cut out the parts that are of relation to him. What that means I don't even know. How can anyone claim someone else, if you think about it, even on an individual level. I don't understand what you're saying. I know for a fact I'm caucasian because of the way I look, because of what doctors have confirmed for me. I also know most of my Egyptian friends are far more Caucasian than Egyptian. I'm not trying to claim Northern Europe or something, I'm just trying to acknowledge their immense achievements. Caucasian does not necessitate European whatsoever. A man in Egypt or Libya is just as Caucasian as a man in Sweden, at least one without sub-Saharan admixture. By the way, if you consider Armenia a part of Europe, which many organizations do, then I do have substantial European origins.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 24, 2005 13:59:58 GMT -5
I would have to say this thread is pretty pointless/ and silly since each ethnic group throughout the world has contributed to present day society. Even Africans, as much as some people on this thread would like to deny or belittle their importance. But having said that, I will have to point out that European concept of the “Individual” as a state or being is probably the greatest contribution to mankind, that no one can really deny. (In other words capitalism) How you ask?
Well most societies at one point or another have been collective as of sorts, in fact many cultures have always viewed this as the correct means of driving their society forward. Many nations even today have and continue to have this perhaps flawed way of thinking. The Asian culture along with most Middle Eastern Nations and other parts of the world view that their society as a whole is better off if the nation state drives the collective decisions of a society as a whole. This thought belief is what keeps most nations from “modernizing” in the true sense of the word.
Everything that you could ever imagine that we know is “good” is through the individual pursuit of self interest. From the creation of the tv, phones, art, (Most Renaissance Art believe it or not was commissioned someone paid for it, so art is never done for the sake of art without someone feeling they must appreciate it and hence pay for it) to the discovery of an aids cure in the future. No one nation has created any of these things, but rather the individuals seeking self-interest. The act of self interest is first thought of to truly take root in Europe, and has passed on to the U.S. and is thus starting to be pursued by the rest of the world.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 24, 2005 14:10:29 GMT -5
learned that in grad school. Undergrad is pretty boring stuff, the meaty stuff I found to be in advanced schooling.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 24, 2005 14:36:47 GMT -5
Correct Human 2!
Never fear Human2, the more astute among us see what you see; the veil attempts of some and the hidden agendas of others.
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Post by Solomon on Jan 24, 2005 15:04:02 GMT -5
And my ancestors didn't make contributions to the Modern West? Without the paper that the Arabs brought from contact with China to Europe, which fueled the Renaissance and everything after, how many more centuries of Inquisitions? Should I get behind the NW European as well? I never said that East Asians didn't contribute to the West. But, if you're asking who contributed more, Egyptians, without a doubt. 'Caucasoid' is a physical type, meaning it's characterized by a particular apperance. Caucasoid types can be found in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. There was never a 'Mediterranean sphere', at least in terms of racial identity. For instance, Phoenicians and Greeks considered themselves different races. Furthermore, Greece and Italy are part of Europe.
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Post by Solomon on Jan 24, 2005 15:22:16 GMT -5
I used to be distraught when I saw all of the criss-crossing. I wanted there to be a pure "Mongoloid" people that I can wholly identify with, but that's not the reality. And once I accepted that, I became liberated. I'm my own man; I belong to no one. I see people like Alexandrian coming on here and proclaiming all this pride in threads. Wow. No wonder you're so defensive, it sounds like you have some serious identity issues.
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Post by Melnorme on Jan 24, 2005 15:29:46 GMT -5
But, if you're asking who contributed more, Egyptians, without a doubt. Uh, I doubt it. Maybe up until the Middle Ages, but definately not afterwards.
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 24, 2005 17:23:29 GMT -5
Uh, I doubt it. Maybe up until the Middle Ages, but definately not afterwards. Are you kidding me? From the period of the beginning of the Old Kingdom to the Middle Ages, the Egyptians made massive contributions to human development. This is a time spanning over 3000 years, while the post-Middle Ages period lasted 500 or so years. Even during the Christian ERa, the greatest martyrs were Egyptians, Egyptian monks converted St. Patrick, and Egyptians invented monasticism. Mind you, during the Middle Ages, the Cairenes controlled the spice trade and had an alliance with Venice, so they played a vital role in world affairs. In modern times, we built the Suez Canal, Aswan Dam, and gave rise to Nobel Laureates like Ahmed Zewail and Naguib Mahfouz. Sure, recently other areas of the world have greatly outdone us, but the accomplishments of the Egyptians spanning all through time can not be belittled.
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Post by Faelcind on Jan 24, 2005 20:01:54 GMT -5
Falecind: "Guns, Germs, and Steel ..." is not necessarily considered by all the last word on the subject "races and their achievement" ... on the contrary, many consider it just a useless effort to justify a politicaly correct vision of the world that simply conflicts with what any racional being can't avoid noticing (ie: race matters). What does Diamond say about the differences between Japanese and Ainu, by the way? Plus, everybody wants to fight about who's best, so you are spoiling the fun. He is not the last word but he is mainstream voice of the sceintific consensus especially within archeology. Only the extremist fringe consider his ideas "PC justifications". Look at Melnormes link, they don't offer a single substantive argument against his premises or conclusions. It's a pure ad hominem. Basically boils down to two premises, jared diamond is a liberal, and he is hypocritical for writing a non PC article in nature. Its like text book example of ad hominem circumstantial and tu quoque. The reason is they can't the ecological materialism theory of historical processes has proven much more robust then Racial theories. Show me one instance were a civilization devolped with out the ecological neccesties? I can cite a civilization devolped by ever major racial group except australoids who live in the least ecological gifted enviorment of any group. I would welcome and honest debate on the subject, thats why I posted the thread, but dismissing it with ad hominems and argumentum ad populum(all reasonable people beleive premise A) is not satisfactory. I for one am personal very dissapointed with this boards descent into Race baiting flame wars and I know I am not alone in that feeling. This supposed to a forum fo discussion of human diversity not for ridiculous arguments about who is better then whom.
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 24, 2005 21:11:11 GMT -5
Let's say my parents became billionairs. Can I really think, "God, I feel proud of myself that my parents became so successful"? Don't you think it's appropriate to be proud of the accomplishments of your relatives? Honestly now, if my or yours or anyone's parents became billionaire I think it is appropriate to say that you would be proud. Having parents who were able to excel greatly in a given field and garner much affluence and recognition because of it, is something that is worthy of pride. Obviously, a person should not let the accomplishments of their blood relatives overshadow their own accomplishments, but I see no harm in being proud of relatives/friends/ancestors etc.
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Post by Anima Eternae on Jan 24, 2005 21:20:15 GMT -5
Don't buy the bullshit about history proving anything about Negroids either. I can't beleive how powerfull the rascism group think is in the online community. If anyone actually bothered to look at african history with an unbiased eye the would see it contains all the elements any other people generated, the just were historicall unlucky, no horses, no wheat, no goats no sheep. Read the thread I linked to above. God I am tired of this ridiculous historical argument for rascism. Don't forget their lack of cerebral ability. HA!
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Post by Melnorme on Jan 25, 2005 0:07:44 GMT -5
That's why I find it funny when I go on StormFront. It's entertaining.. looking at people who are proud of OPP. annanuki, OPP means "other people's property" BTW. You asked. Now you know. Thank goodness, I thought you were talking about "One People's Project".
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Post by Melnorme on Jan 25, 2005 0:13:50 GMT -5
Look at Melnormes link, they don't offer a single substantive argument against his premises or conclusions. That link wasn't meant to directly address any argument in this thread - they've asked that people 'Google bomb' it and I was looking for an excuse. If you want arguments then you can look through their archives ( with an open mind ), there are plenty of them.
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