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Post by visigodo on Jan 3, 2005 2:00:46 GMT -5
thread, but I would like to hear other people’s opinion on this matter.
As first a European citizen, and as a U.S. citizen second, I can see that perhaps what works for one nation such as the U.S. may not work for all nations, in particular the European Union. The U.S. is a country for the most part made of people from across the globe. This in general seems works for the U.S. Then again this melting pot is an ongoing experiment which only has been running for less than 400 years. (Who knows when individual pockets of large numbers of a certain groups of peoples within the U.S. start forming and feel a separate community and identity within a nation. This sort of fragmentation can lead to separatism or at worst rebellion or independence, due to this lack of homogenous population or harmony within its borders) So one day the melting pot, could boil over.
This system cannot work, in the E.U. In Europe there is growing discontent with its immigrant population. Not just from radical right wing groups, but the left wing groups are also getting fed up with immigrants. Many people perhaps think the left group is the one that will bring harmony to both and unite all peoples together. In Europe trade unions are vital to the left, who depend on unions to get them into public offices. But it’s this growing discontent with immigrants (warranted or not) that the unions are starting express to the left, their dissatisfaction and for which the left must act out on. Eventually I see a convergence of the right and left, a meeting of the minds if you will, and you will see a curbing of past immigration policy.
The growing discontent in Europe is not for just the radical Islamic groups, in Italy and France there is growing discontent with Asian groups. Germany has started to look into cutting back Indian, and Pakistan residency which are taking jobs away from the local residents there. Spain has in the recent years had an increase in Latin American groups arriving.
So the problem in Europe I would say is with people, non-Europeans/ non-white arriving or wanting to arrive in droves into the continent. It’s difficult to really blame Europeans. Why should the rest of the world views us as a continent that must or has the duty to invite foreigners into our nations? To bring down the cost of labor down? To help the firm become richer? Utter non-sense, yet these people in there own nations such as India, or China drastically limit if not forbid altogether any foreigners to emigrate. Although Europe is made up of various nations all of those individual nations within that encompassing union are for the most part made up of homogenous populations who is anyone to tell us to accept outside people. What works for the U.S., I cannot see it working for us. We must stop outside foreign emigration and encourage our own population to increase birth rates.
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Post by visigodo on Jan 3, 2005 2:44:49 GMT -5
On a side note:
The foreign aid that Europe/U.S. provides for nations, is vital not only for the stability of other nations,(such as hunger relief, or tsunami Aid) but indeed vital to the stability of Europe as a whole. It is in our interest to help these people to get back up on their own two feet, otherwise we can expect a greater influx of foreigners arriving at our own shores. Making things difficult for everyone involved.
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Post by murphee on Jan 3, 2005 13:39:17 GMT -5
As an American, I think you are right. I predict increased racial, ethnic and religious tensions in Europe. Countries such as Germany and France will reach a 'boiling point,' and I predict destabilization and warfare between native Europeans and immigrants and their descendants within the next 50 years.
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Post by Human on Jan 3, 2005 13:48:32 GMT -5
murphee
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Post by vela on Jan 3, 2005 19:38:36 GMT -5
... ... It is in our interest to help these people to get back up on their own two feet, otherwise we can expect a greater influx of foreigners arriving at our own shores. Making things difficult for everyone involved. This is the crux of the matter. Why is it that this view isn't more popular? I would think that the difference is in the leadership. There are leaders and then there are Leaders. Until now all seem to be so shortsighted and selfishly enjoying themselves, that don't seem to be aware of the political "tsunami" on the horizon. Like I said in a different thread, the rich countries are too busy building fences around their prosperity instead of building prosperity around their fences. The first approach is doomed to fail; the second is the best option for a long term solution. Ironically, one of the stumbling blocks for an enduring solution is democracy. The majority of the people in First World countries don't want to make any real sacrifices and their political leaders aren't willing to pay the political cost of giving their constituents the bitter medicine that our world needs. So we let things go their natural way until it is too late. But change is imminent. Either we change graciously and voluntarily or we'll be forced to change by circumstances, sooner than later.
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Post by vela on Jan 3, 2005 19:39:52 GMT -5
As an American, I think you are right. I predict increased racial, ethnic and religious tensions in Europe. Countries such as Germany and France will reach a 'boiling point,' and I predict destabilization and warfare between native Europeans and immigrants and their descendants within the next 50 years. Didn't know about your crystal ball, dear murphee.
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Post by murphee on Jan 3, 2005 23:13:19 GMT -5
Not sure if I'm right, but I guess it's going to happen after viewing current trends.
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Post by nordicyouth on Jan 5, 2005 3:02:18 GMT -5
See Murphee! That's why multiracial states don't work. Maybe multiethnic. But even in North America Europeans have had to conform to Anglo-Saxon standards, on whose foundations both the USA and Canada were built - like it or not. And the melting pot made by individual materialism and crass consumerism has obviously failed in America. Writers were lamenting it as early as the late 80s. Each boatload of non-Whites that washes ashore in Europe is one step closer to bloodbath - the State's ability to peacefully resolve the situation is waning. Time is running out.
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Post by murphee on Jan 5, 2005 4:55:58 GMT -5
It does depend where you are in the United States...in some areas, the varying groups co-exist fine together, in others, not. I see the situation in Europe as very different from that in America. America's history, post Amerindian era, is that of a nation of immigrants, while Europe's countries have entrenched native cultures spanning many hundreds of years. Native Europeans feel swamped by the influx of 'auslanders.' The resentments and 'culture clashes' will be explosive.
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Post by fatman213 on Jan 5, 2005 6:17:45 GMT -5
Bottom line; Euro BIRTH RATES means immigration is likely to continue. ;D
Otherwise, the current EU population will continue its decline unless immigration is continued.
What are the implications for EU economic power as its population declines in number? Surely, Euros need to lower their expectations that a united Europe will lead to the creation of a superpower. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!
P.S. I don't see why Euros don't simply PAY women to have babies. Its NOT like the USA where you would have porblems if you paid one race to breed and not others.
Either way, Europe is the PAST. America the FUTURE!
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Post by alex221166 on Jan 5, 2005 11:00:10 GMT -5
Either way, Europe is the PAST. America the FUTURE! China is the future. When the Euro fully replaces the dollar as the international currency, America will be completely f*cked. No more "let's print more money to pay our bills". The dollar devalued about 25% (compared to the Euro) in only a couple of years. Are you trying to compete with the Turkish lira? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by visigodo on Jan 5, 2005 16:02:29 GMT -5
I’m not too sure of racial warfare occurring, but you will see further marginalizing of minority groups. The Muslims, followed by Asians, Africans, and Latin American, are already being targeted here in Europe. Like the Jews and the Gypsies before them. In Europe if you are an immigrant, the first thought in peoples minds are that you are taking advantage of the generous social welfare programs we have in place. This welfare system was designed by Europeans to help Europeans, not to help outside hords of mongrels. fatman213, I think that perhaps most Americans misunderstand the problem the E.U. faces. It’s not our declining birthrates that are a problem. No, there is nothing wrong with having slower birthrates, because there tends to be a correlation of lower birthrates to that of general wealth of a nation. Generally wealthy nations with lower birthrates are richer as that of first world nations, like the U.S. does as compared to say Mexico or any other poorer nation. The problem we face in Europe is like that of the U.S. social security, more retirees than contribution money coming in. So we have various solutions to our problem. There is no need for more immigrants to come to Europe. First of all is cause most if not all immigrants tend not to be very skilled so they provide little to return as far as paying into our social system in fact there is evidence that they abuse our system. Our system provides incentives for more to come here and keep abusing the social welfare system. So how do we forbid, more immigrants from coming. That would be my removing our system of social welfare to anyone who comes here. To have moratorium of 5 years, this will discourage abuse, and make immigrants leave. We can also provide native Europeans with greater tax breaks for having children. Cutting some of our great social welfare system may also have to occur. Most Europeans if you asked them would rather have less social welfare than have greater amounts of emigrants to help pay for the system. This is what the left will recognize one day, and Europe will be better off. ;D
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Post by visigodo on Jan 5, 2005 18:19:17 GMT -5
"What are the implications for EU economic power as its population declines in number? Surely, Euros need to lower their expectations that a united Europe will lead to the creation of a superpower. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!"
It’s already happening. Look around you, read the newspapers. Europe is a major threat to the U.S. This doesn’t mean that the U.S. will fall into a third world status. What it means is that the domination in certain fields in industry will no longer be dominated by U.S. firms. Look at Eurobus, people are starting to realize we don’t need to buy American planes or other types of goods for everything. That there are products being made better and more effective.
Or do you still believe the U.S. dominates the car industry? Go tell that to Japan, and other competing E.U. You still think that steal manufacturing, is dominated by the robber barons? The Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, and Carnegies, are of monopolies of another time. We are living in a time of where the U.S.’s role as dominant in every aspect will no longer be the case. It is ancient Rome, in its plateau, and like all other empires that we have seen here in Europe come and go, so too has the U.S., has reached its zenith and is about to plateau, we are living in times of great change and the U.S. faced some serious competition, now with the E.U. free market
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Post by buddyrydell on Jan 5, 2005 22:11:43 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with immigrants as I believe anybody should have the right to create a better life for himself and/or his family, however I understand what people are saying about the differences between immigrants in Europe and those here in the U.S. Immigration has always characterized U.S. history and society, and with the exception of Native Americans, we are all descendants of immigrants from other lands.
But, native Europeans have lived in their lands for millenia. Due to their ancient existence, they're simply not used to immigration as we are here in the states. There are already tensions between native Europeans and immigrants. Different cultures, religions, and racial groups have all brought something new to Europe: diversity. In America we've had our rocky times too, but generally we've managed pretty well with diversity because it has always existed in our society. Europeans are just getting used to this concept, so of course it's going to take some time, particularly in the more traditional countries who have historically had fewer immigrants, such as Italy, Spain, and Germany. Nations such as France and the UK have adjusted to new immigrants for awhile, largely because of their status as colonial powers. As for Muslims in Europe, this may be the one issue that is the most touchy. The EU didn't even want Turkey to join largely for this reason. Religious acceptance is probably going to be the biggest challenge in the long run imo.
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Post by fatman213 on Jan 5, 2005 23:58:38 GMT -5
I’m not too sure of racial warfare occurring, but you will see further marginalizing of minority groups. The Muslims, followed by Asians, Africans, and Latin American, are already being targeted here in Europe. Like the Jews and the Gypsies before them. In Europe if you are an immigrant, the first thought in peoples minds are that you are taking advantage of the generous social welfare programs we have in place. This welfare system was designed by Europeans to help Europeans, not to help outside hords of mongrels. fatman213, I think that perhaps most Americans misunderstand the problem the E.U. faces. It’s not our declining birthrates that are a problem. No, there is nothing wrong with having slower birthrates, because there tends to be a correlation of lower birthrates to that of general wealth of a nation. Generally wealthy nations with lower birthrates are richer as that of first world nations, like the U.S. does as compared to say Mexico or any other poorer nation. The problem we face in Europe is like that of the U.S. social security, more retirees than contribution money coming in. So we have various solutions to our problem. There is no need for more immigrants to come to Europe. First of all is cause most if not all immigrants tend not to be very skilled so they provide little to return as far as paying into our social system in fact there is evidence that they abuse our system. Our system provides incentives for more to come here and keep abusing the social welfare system. So how do we forbid, more immigrants from coming. That would be my removing our system of social welfare to anyone who comes here. To have moratorium of 5 years, this will discourage abuse, and make immigrants leave. We can also provide native Europeans with greater tax breaks for having children. Cutting some of our great social welfare system may also have to occur. Most Europeans if you asked them would rather have less social welfare than have greater amounts of emigrants to help pay for the system. This is what the left will recognize one day, and Europe will be better off. ;D Fascinating godo, though we OBVIOUSLY hate each other, I actaully agree with this post. Europe is NOT my concern anyway.
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