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Post by Solomon on Dec 18, 2004 12:56:31 GMT -5
Ooooooh man!! I can see the Brits slowly inching out of the room on that one! Um, I'm not following? I'm still not following, please elaborate. Also note that Jews and Israelis are not on interchangeable terms. 66% of the world's Jews do not live in Israel.
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 14:18:36 GMT -5
Israelis didn't steal it; the British promised it to them. The Jews gave Arabs 3/4 of mandatory Palestine, and they're currently working on giving them another piece of the Holy Land, thanks to the UN. The UN is a joke, period. If someone promised me a Lamborghini smeared with the blood of the former owner, I still wouldn't accept it. Brits' foreign policy is almost as idiotic as the US's, but that doesn't give others the right to shift blame. But yes, I love Jews in my own weird way... my host family in the US is "quasi-Jewish," and they introduced me to the genious known as Curb Your Enthusiasm... And they are very anti-Israel too. So I imagine many Europians and Muslims might agree that the map of the Middle East should be SIGNIFICANTLY redrawn. ...To seperate all these identities into ethnic Nation States. (No wonder Turkey must be freaking out. They'd loose half their country to a new Kurdistan.) The political entity known as Turkey is as as nightmarish as they come... yet another multicultural imperalist mess, still in Ottoman mode, ready to take over all of Europe. ...I have admiration for nations like India, the United States, and even France, who can make a polyglot of people work together. And in some ways, these polyglot cultures have their own advantages. (I can't help think, how if Europe REALLY felt this way, they'd be pretty serious about border control, and restricting immigration entirely. But they're not.) These polyglot nations are slowly tearing themselves apart. Even in very successful melting pots like the UK, world events are making peoples' TRUE alliances emerge. This is why the US's "war on terror" will destroy the world. It's creating dangerous fundamentalist Muslims out of benign Muslims everywhere, and they're rising up. Look at the opposite end: the UTTERLY homogenous entity known as Iceland. They're doing VERY well, and are very happy with their people and government, and they're staying out of the world's problems. When the rest of the world has collapsed due to insanity and social breakdown, the last stronghold will be Iceland. And I hate what is happening to the EU. What went from a beautiful confederation of mutually-accepting cultures is now a political force separate from the people it represents, and is trying to meld several very different and yet beautiful cultures into one atrocious "European" culture. The most perfect polyglotism I've experienced is Norden. They're all very similar cultures to an outsider, but very different when you're part of it. Yet they coexist very well, and even are secure enough to bicker with each other and make fun of each other. They also don't affect the others too much even with freedom of movement. I've met a LOT of Swedes living in Norway, and somehow being a "Swede living in Norway" is quite OK, and doesn't affect either badly. It's a hard situation to explain unless you've seen it yourself. I myself feel more at home and also match the mentality more in Sweden than Germany, and maybe someday I'll be able to call myself Swedish
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 14:35:42 GMT -5
Immigration shouldn't be about "opennes" or "restriction." Immigration policies everywhere are idiotic.
I am pro-free immigration, but vehemently anti-separatism. If you move to a country with intentions on staying, you need to become part of that culture and not destroy it. Immigration CANNOT be solely for economic purposes. Money is evil and is destroying humanity anyway. Immigration needs to be on a case-by-case basis, where people are judged to be honest, open people who want to assist the country they are going to, and also go to a place where they feel more at home. Citizenship and birthrights are stupid.
E.g. I met a guy born in Pakistan in Copenhagen who was VERY Danish, and considered himself Danish and was proud to live in Denmark. Or a man from Nigeria who lived in a little Bavarian village and whom people joked "was the blackest man in the village," but I couldn't tell him apart from the rest otherwise, and no one else paid attention either: He WAS German. So what if your genes come from Africa? If you love Germany, and speak German, and think German, and live German, you're German. That is the right kind of immigration. I also met many Africans in Norway who go into their own little "dark bars" and complain about how miserable Norway is: it's cold, and the people are mean, and their moods change with the weather, the food is bizarre, etc. and ask me if I'm a cop when I start talking to them, simply because I'm white and try speaking in my Swedish/Norwegian blend first instead of English or whatever language THEY like. This is NOT immigration. This is political conquerance and individualistic capitalist bloodsucking.
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Post by Solomon on Dec 18, 2004 15:54:33 GMT -5
If someone promised me a Lamborghini smeared with the blood of the former owner, I still wouldn't accept it. Brits' foreign policy is almost as idiotic as the US's, but that doesn't give others the right to shift blame. Bad analogy. The British offered the Jews desert and swamp land, before the word "Palestinian" (as we know it today) existed. There were no states during or immediately after Ottoman rule. It wasn't until after the Jews began to colonize the Holy Land that tension arose. Hebron Massacres, anyone? Why are you anti-Israel?
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 16:14:32 GMT -5
I am anti-Israel-in-its-present-state. Something needs to be done VERY soon, or else shit will hit the fan even more. Israel needs to be SOMEWHERE, but definetely not atop a festering hive of angry Muslims. I'm also anti-Palestine, however. When two people are in a fistfight, I'm the kind of person to stay out of it, but if they crash into me I spray them down with a high-power firehose.
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Post by Solomon on Dec 18, 2004 16:28:03 GMT -5
So, you believe Israel has the right to exist?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Israel is operating. Of course, Wetsern media likes to focus on dead Palestinians and the "occupied territories", so outsiders like us normally don't get the full story.
I'm pro-Palestine, but I'm not sure that the creation of Palestine will solve anything. It depends on whether or not the PA is willing to act in good faith.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 18, 2004 18:12:37 GMT -5
So, you believe Israel has the right to exist? I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Israel is operating. Of course, Wetsern media likes to focus on dead Palestinians and the "occupied territories", so outsiders like us normally don't get the full story. I'm pro-Palestine, but I'm not sure that the creation of Palestine will solve anything. It depends on whether or not the PA is willing to act in good faith. ...It's operating on a multi-million dollar paycheck from the United States. It's in a constant military state. ...This is operating well? Ok, I'm pro-Palestinian too, and I also agree that giving Palestinians their own State isn't necessarily the best solution. (Was partition in India such a great idea?) It even capitulates to low-level military pressure which only enhanses standing of militant groups in those regions. ...But are you REALLY pro-Palestinian? Does your pro-Palestinian stance include giving Palestinians in the West Bank the right to vote? How do you feel about some of Israel's laws, ...like requiring a Jewish majority to be in the Kinessit? Do you think Pro-Israeli Palestinians should serve in the Military? ...A lot of jobs and connections come from those years. How do you feel about Palestinian immigration? ...The same way you feel about Jewish-Immigration to Israel? ...I doubt it.
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Post by Solomon on Dec 18, 2004 20:57:13 GMT -5
...It's operating on a multi-million dollar paycheck from the United States. It's in America's best interest to support Israel. Although Israel generates enough revenue to support itself, it's imperative that they have adequate military funding, something the US is willing to help them with. Yes, this is to be expected. Is there something wrong with Israelis defending themselves? I don't know what being "pro-Palestinian" constitutes, but I am pro-Palestine. Jews can be pro-Palestine too you know If there was a Palestine, there would be no West Bank. Otherwise it depends on which Palestinians you're talking about and what they're voting for. I think it's the duty of every Israeli citizen. Israeli Arabs are viewed as traitors by Palestinians outside of Israel because they enjoy every right Israeli Jews have. I don't think it's too much to ask them to serve in the IDF like everyone else, and they don't seem to mind either. Of course not, anyone with a basic knowledge of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict wouldn't have to ask. When the Jews accepted the UN partition plan in 1948 and declared Israel a state, several Arab governments warned the Palestinians to either join them in fighting the Jews or leave (to ensure their saftey) - most left. The Arabs promised them every inch of Palestine. Unfortunately for them, the Israelis ended up whupping some ass. That said, why should the Israelis let them in? Most of today's Palestinian refugees are the descendants of those who fled Israel in '48. Why are their children being counted as refugees?
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 23:46:37 GMT -5
There's something wrong with defending yourself if it drains the entire world economically, relationship-wise, and politically doing so. The Middle East is the grand tarbaby of the Earth.
If all the foreign money stopped flowing into Israel, then the Muslims would already have run every Israeli into the Red Sea... either learn to support your own military spending, or learn how to make peace with your neighbors.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 0:07:49 GMT -5
It's in America's best interest to support Israel. Although Israel generates enough revenue to support itself, it's imperative that they have adequate military funding, something the US is willing to help them with. How is it in America's best interest to support Israel? ...I would love for you to explain this to me. ...Even give me some procedures to follow to help me understand, ...like hitting myself on the head repeatly with a hammer. ...HOW it is in America's best interest to support Israel? I'm not sure I understand Israel's way of defending itself. ...I think it involves having no babies, holding a gun, and watching Israel turn into a weird Palestinian breeding colony. I'm talking about Palestinians in the West Bank. (Not Gaza.) A place that Israel is likely to expand into. ...Now if Israel was smart, they would make this a rapid process. ...Even get some non-Jewish, non-Arab immigrants speaking some nice Hebrew to help out. But alas, Israel is dumb. And Israel hasn't even decided to do anything. ...So Palestinians are left out there with the Settlers to grow increasingly unaccounted for, and angry. ...That is admittedly, very progressive thinking. I think it would be in Israel's best long term interests to do so. ...As well as providing avenues of economic opportunity, which I am aware Israel has already done and continues to do. It becomes murky because Israel has been, and is likely to continue, to expand into the West Bank. ...The history is largely insignificant. I don't consider them refugees. I consider them people who Israel will have to make peace with, and incorporate. (...Or totally wipe out, or ethnically cleanse, which probably many Israeli's WANT to do, but withhold from doing.) Most Jewish-Americans I talk to are pretty firm about wanting a two state solution. ...Do you know of many other Jews who accept that longterm, more of a one-state sollution will probably be needed?
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Post by Solomon on Dec 19, 2004 13:03:53 GMT -5
How is it in America's best interest to support Israel? Israel is the strongest American ally in the Middle East. A secure, strong Israel is in America's best interest - I quote WorldNetDaily commentator Michael Evans - to weaken Israel is to destabilize the Middle East and risk the peace of the world. In other words, without Israel, the US would be investing billions more to keep the peace in the Middle East. You don't really think America would help anyone they don't have to, do you? That's an outright fallacy. The Israeli birthrate is higher than it has been in awhile. According to a Health Ministry report, the Jewish Israeli birthrate is on the rise, while the Arab Israeli birthrate remains unchanged.
In Israel of 2003, 144,625 babies were born, representing an increase of 3.4% over 2002.www.arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=67303The rest of your statement makes absolutely no sense. Try organizing your thoughts if you want me to respond. You'll have to be more specific than that. Every settlement so far has been completely legal under every standard of international law. I've already rebutted this ridiculous claim. You have done nothing to substantiate this opinion of your's. Do you know something the rest of the world doesn't? The history is extremely important. Lebanon is the only country where a substantial amount of Palestinians live in refugee camps, not the West Bank. These refugees are the responsibilty of the Lebanese gov't, so why haven't they done anything to help their Muslim brothers? No offense, but your opinion means nothing. Facts are facts, and the fact is, these people are refugees and they are out of Israel's jurisdiction. If you were to accept this fact, you'd have no argument. Believe it or not, one of my best friends is Palestinian, so I've entertained the idea. But I'd wager to say that most Palestinians would rather decimate the Jewish population in the Middle East than live with us.
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Post by Solomon on Dec 19, 2004 13:15:37 GMT -5
either learn to support your own military spending, or learn how to make peace with your neighbors. I agree with you here. Israel is on its way to supporting itself militarily and making peace. It's going to take some time, though.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 14:25:34 GMT -5
Israel is the strongest American ally in the Middle East. A secure, strong Israel is in America's best interest - I quote WorldNetDaily commentator Michael Evans - to weaken Israel is to destabilize the Middle East and risk the peace of the world. In other words, without Israel, the US would be investing billions more to keep the peace in the Middle East. You don't really think America would help anyone they don't have to, do you? I think America helps Israel because they like Jewish people. My friends in the South, like Israel even more then I do, someone who has grown up with many Jewish acquaintences and friends. It's a strange relationship. The reasons are complex. Part of it comes from a long standing desire to feel morally superior to Europe. We are the country that "restored order" after Europe tore itself apart, and Jews are the voice of Europeans who survived it's total wreckage. But beyond that, there is a genuine affinity. A love for the successes of White immigrants who have made good for themselves, their families, and their country in a new land. On a Real-Politik level, Israel does provide good intel for the United States. Billingual intelligence experts, for a region that we plainly just don't have. But as for the Middle East, the United States' support of Israel is problematic. It is probably at this point, more of a liability then an asset. The constant friction, and images of European Jews controlling by force are deeply unsettling to the region. In all practicality, for a multi-cultural country like the United States, our most valueble ally in the region should be Arab. It goes contrary to our style to have a dominating partner in a region. We enjoy close ties with most places by having immigrant populations with ties back home. ...It's not Israel's fault that she's white, but it does pose a problem for the U.S. ....It would be folly for the United States to drop support for Israel, as they are a barometer for U.S. commitment in the region. It would be an invitation for Islamic revolt accross the region. But I don't think it's particularly astonishing to say that at this point, the United States' support of Israel is problematic. Well, I have some slightly different statistics... Israel www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.htmlWest Bank www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html...But I point this out, not to encourage a breeding competition, which will decrease the quality of parenting, but rather to point out that the Palestinian birth-rate is too high, and largely a reaction to poverty, and inequitable opportunities. High birthrates, and low education contribute to a sense of ethnic futulity. It's a dangerous path, as I'm sure you know. Only recently, have African-Americans in America started to see the value in having fewer, better educated children. And with that, a stunning reversal has happened. Black families no longer cling to historical reasons for their own failings, because they're too busy with their successes. ...I would like to believe something like this would be possible for Israel. But there are language transitions that must occur first. That's a farce. I'm aware of this claim. It takes a lot of Chutzpah, to kick a bunch of Palestinians out, and then ask why the Arabs haven't done anything about it. ...It's really asking for trouble. I'm sure the United States will gladly offer funds to successfully have Lebanon and other nations incorporate these populations. ...It's a worthy expedature. (Once the periodic rocket attacks stop in the North.) You're right in saying that the history is "too" important to people there. Israel should let in non-Jewish/non-Muslim immigrants, so it would become "less" important. ...My opinion is important to the degree that it can offer helpful solutions. ...How's that? Yes... we understand this. And in doing so, would ask for progress in reasonable ways, and at a reasonable pace. But you can't ask for American "problem sovling" in the region and then ignore realistic solutions. Israel would be better off, to let in substantially more immigrants (non-Jewish/non-Muslim), and help with the expansion into the West Bank. Having non-white Israeli citizens will assuage Palestinians fears that they have no place in a Jewish Isreal. It will help the economy. And it will help with unity, as a diverse population settles on the language of Hebrew for schooling, and everyday use. ...It will help Israel become a place that focuses on economic opportunity, rather then ethnic and religious historical identities. But the problem is the sticking point of a "Jewish State" that Israel tenaciously clings to. ...It really creates more problems then solutions. ...It's the only reason I can think of, why Israel wouldn't let in significant non-Jewish/non-Muslim immigration.
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Post by Solomon on Dec 19, 2004 17:56:21 GMT -5
I think America helps Israel because they like Jewish people. This has got to be some of the dumbest reasoning I've seen in awhile. Now you're on the right track. The US isn't funding Israel simply because it's a "white" country, or because they like Jews. If that were the case we wouldn't be giving Egypt 2.2 billion a year. How so? Our government is very adamant in their support of Israel. You're obviously confused when it comes to the Jewish demographic in Israel. The majority of Israelis are Middle Eastern/North African Jewry (Mizrahim and Sephardim), European Jews do represent a large minority of the Israeli population, though. I myself - a Sephardic Jew of Turkish and Syrian descent - don't look much different than the average Palestinian. I hate when non-European Caucasians (i.e. Palestinians, Sephardic Jews, etc.) are labeled "non-white", but that's another story. Where the hell have you been for the last 60 years? You do realize that Palestinian families are having as many children as possible in an effort to outnumber the Jewish majority, right? Don't expect Jewish families to have 9 children per household, we value our offspring. This illustrates the situation perfectly: No, it's not. I defy you to give one example of Israel establishing an illegal settlement. Another baseless claim. Try using sources to back up your statements, or at the very least give dates and numbers. And for the record, I don't speak Yiddish, thus I have no idea what "chutzpah" means. Newsflash: They already do! Don't twist my words. Why should Israel (a Jewish state) grant citizenship to non-Jews and non-Muslims? You make no sense. Your opinion that Palestinian refugees aren't refugees is neither helpful nor valuable. In stating that they're not refugees*, one assumes they were forced out of Palestine and that they should be let back in. They should have stayed when the Israelis gave them the chance. *ref·u·gee Audio pronunciation of "refugee" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rfy-j) n. n : an exile who flees for safety dictionary.reference.com/search?q=refugeeWhen, if ever, has Israel been unreasonable in working towards peace with the Palestinians? If anyone is at fault it's the PLO/PA. I can go into detail if need be. Do you have any idea how absurd you sound? You're entire perspective on the conflict is skewed, and you're extremely uninformed. Don't make me embarrass you any further on this issue.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 18:18:56 GMT -5
F*ck... I have to go in about 10 minutes, but let me see if I can crank a response out before I go. You do realize that Palestinian families are having as many children as possible in an effort to outnumber the Jewish majority, right? Don't expect Jewish families to have 9 children per household, we value our offspring. Yeah, I realize that. That's what I meant by Israel being a breeding colony for Palestinian radicals. ...Let's not and say we did. ...Look, I support Jewish expansion into the West Bank. No Suicide bombers came from inside Israel. They only came from the West Bank, where because it hasn't been incorporated yet. I'm someone who thinks longterm, the best solution is to incorporate the West Bank into Israel proper. ...Better for the Palestinians there as well as the Israelis. ...That's very unfortunate. ...Because it's better for Israel, better for the region, and a lasting solution. I doubt Juddaism will win out as a State. Severely. It's a battle of birthrates, and Palestinians are winning, both outside and inside Israel. But Juddaism may win as a culture. Hebrew as a language. And Israel as a prosperous state. Israel needs non-hostile people to help them. non-Muslim/non-Jewish immigrants who integrate well would help immensely. Didn't have time for a proper response. Sorry. Will get to the rest later.
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