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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 17:37:55 GMT -5
I mention Karski becuase people with your agenda use anything and everything they can get their hands on, like lies by Jan karski. They use jewish propaganda so far as it serves their own purpose, yet when it goes against them they attack it. In your mind it's OK to use lies against germans but when it attacks poles it becomes offensive. And when people, like marcus wendel from axishistory, don't want to take the same deluded road you find it offensive. After all the Communists were 100% good and the Germans were 100% bad. Thus, their version of events would be 100% right and Germans 100% wrong.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 17:39:34 GMT -5
You're mistaking Ukrainian Communists with Ukrainian Gangster Capitalists. You see, Capitalists is the key word here. And by the way, these things did not happen during good old Communist days. What makes one appreciate the Communist rule that much more. :-) You're so right. And seeing how the good old days lasted an unremarkable ninety years, in which the only meaningful legacy to Europe and The World is and will forever be Chernobyl and thousands of other toxic hot spots throughout Europe into Asia, I can only assume your either trolling or a bit further in the woods than you think you are.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 17:42:40 GMT -5
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 18, 2006 17:46:57 GMT -5
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 17:48:55 GMT -5
Not a big fan of Lech Walesa is he? Modify: Growing up in New York, I'm not surprised by this sort of shame to the point of denial. I remember going with a friend to a party. This dude came up and started talking to her. As typical around here, he asked about her ethnicity. When she told him she was Jewish he turned red and started to apologize for what his people (Polish) did to hers. All she could say was "don't worry. You didn't do anything."
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 17:55:18 GMT -5
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 18:00:57 GMT -5
He's speaking to me.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 18:03:20 GMT -5
Papurec does not even sound Polish, but Ukrainian it's an acronym
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 18:12:03 GMT -5
Not a big fan of Lech Walesa is he? Modify: Growing up in New York, I'm not surprised by this sort of shame to the point of denial. I remember going with a friend to a party. This dude came up and started talking to her. As typical around here, he asked about her ethnicity. When she told him she was Jewish he turned red and started to apologize for what his people (Polish) did to hers. All she could say was "don't worry. You didn't do anything." Huh?
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 19:20:20 GMT -5
New York I remember when it happened. This was maybe twenty years ago. It's not an ideological or historical point. But it struck home to me how complicated the consequences of war, politics and ethnicity were, and still are, You gave that link, I followed, and it showed bald-faced attempt at denying Polish comlpicity in the genocide of Jews. You know, irony
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 19, 2006 4:40:46 GMT -5
New York I remember when it happened. This was maybe twenty years ago. It's not an ideological or historical point. But it struck home to me how complicated the consequences of war, politics and ethnicity were, and still are, You gave that link, I followed, and it showed bald-faced attempt at denying Polish comlpicity in the genocide of Jews. You know, irony Papurec isn't a site pointing a finger at germans, it's only to refute slander against poland.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 19, 2006 17:24:47 GMT -5
[quote author=annienormanna Papurec isn't a site pointing a finger at germans, it's only to refute slander against poland. It just has this "Jewish Conspiracy" thing about it. I fail to see slander, possibly because I'm not so caught up in defending history. I'd rather understand it.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jan 19, 2006 19:18:37 GMT -5
Jewish conspiracies don't exist! It's lies, all lies!
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 19, 2006 22:34:24 GMT -5
[quote author=annienormanna Papurec isn't a site pointing a finger at germans, it's only to refute slander against poland. It just has this "Jewish Conspiracy" thing about it. I fail to see slander, possibly because I'm not so caught up in defending history. I'd rather understand it. Ukar.org, which is another similar website dedicated to refuting slander directed at Ukraine, which I guess is another "anti-semitic" oriented web site. Maintained by Dr. Lubomyr Prytulak, a graduate of the University of Toronto and Stanford university and retired professor of psycology. He was born in Potochyshche Galicia and escaped before the soviet advance. He entered Canada as a refugee shortly thereafter. It's strange how a person with such an extensive understanding of human psycology could himself be afflicted with the malady of anti-semitism. These websites exist for one of two reasons: A) They are maintained by irrational jew haters or B) Some Jewish entities slander the Ukraine and Poland more than anyone else. You be the judge which one is correct. Conspiracies don't exist. There is only reality and ignorance.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jan 19, 2006 22:42:47 GMT -5
Weren't 30 million people starved to death in the Ukraine under the Soviets?
It was some ridiculous figure like that.
Some Australian lady-author got into trouble in writing about the Ukraine and its antisemitism in light of what the Soviets did, and who their leaders were.
That's why so many in Eastern Europe viewed the Nazis as liberators. (The Nazis had killed far fewer than the Bolsheviks had.) What's lesser publicized is that Jews, too, ran out into the streets to welcome the Germans-just as they did in World War I.
Germany signified the West, civilization. Russia represented the backward east, totalitarianism, brutality.
(During World War II many Jews were still alive to remember Czarist Russia, and they remembered how welcoming Germany had been to the fleeing Jews, how much more tolerant.)
So their hatred of Russia and their love of the West drove them out to stand side by side with the Ukranians when the Germans came into the region.
What the Jews could not have anticipated was that the Ukranians largely associated them with the Bolsheviks who rose to power in Russia, and who set into motion the evil machinery of the State to kill tens of millions of Ukranians.
So many of the party bosses were Jewish, so many of the leaders and kommisars.
So when the Germans rolled in the Ukranians were just as hateful of the Jews as the Germans were.
Sadly, hatred is not created in a void.
Jews really were ridiculously over-represented among the leadership of the Soviets and the secret police.
So the Ukranians really didn't pick a scapegoat from a hat--like apologists like to pretend--and randomly pick "Jew". If that were the case, and the hat was filled with any minority group, one would see attacks on Eskimos, Australian aborigines, the Amish, etc.
No, not every burst of hatred against the Jews was based on "random scapegoat-ism".
You overlook a lot if you overlook the legitimate reasons for anger and resentment.
Where legitimate rage turns into mindless brutality, though, is when the victim misdirects his fury away from the butchers, murderers and despots and trains his anger onto an easier target: Say, an innocent shop-owner or a quiet cobler (who just happen to be affiliated loosely with scoundrels by dint of a shared religion or ethnicity.) That's when the tragedies of history take place.
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