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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 17, 2006 16:34:40 GMT -5
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 17, 2006 20:35:02 GMT -5
This makes no sense. It mentioned, rightly, that the Germans were on the offensive, and therefore more able to document exactly what it was they encountered, be it equipment or bodies etc., where as the communist partisans were on the defense and scattered. Not only that but they were also a clandestine outfit whom no doubt weren't overly attentive and concerned with such documentation. Certainly the Germans records would be more accurate than the already ambiguous partisans claims that could've easily been even further compromised by communist historical revision after the war. Let me ask you, why would the Germans lie to themselves? This was not agitprop that was to be publish by Volk und Reich Verlag Berlin. These were for the archives. Unlike the communist take on it. You're Just mad cause it doesn't suit your own sensibilities i.e., Like how the Germans DIDN'T cake walk into the soviet union, when indeed they did. Or like how every German civilian killed in Bromberg and west Prussia were fifth columns whom had been shooting at the wehrmacht. Axishistory isn't bias, you are, and it shows.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 17, 2006 21:07:57 GMT -5
Before posting stupid responses, check what I have actually to say on the matter. The only "Communist historical revision" on the Axis losses after the war is in your head. The Germans did lie to themselves (among others, to hide their own incompetence against worse armed, numerically smaller, and racially "inferior" opponets, and/or to boost their own morale).
Doubt that a non-Communist Polish veteran would be making a hash out of nothing in his own book with at least one hundred other Polish witnesses knowing about it.
Again, read the posting I made, and it clearly shows that Axishistory is biased, in spite of that they falsely present themselves as "unbiased" and "balanced".
Do a more careful job of reading, or learn to read:
asaland.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=prime&action=display&thread=1137532619
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Post by olympian on Jan 17, 2006 21:51:54 GMT -5
partisans won. end of story
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Post by blueskygod on Jan 18, 2006 4:46:17 GMT -5
The USSR saved the world from the Nazi bastards! The Americans adn British didnt even oipen a WEstern front till 1944 when Russia was already pushing the Nazi Pigs into Central Europe. Long Live the Proletarian Victory over imperialism!
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 5:36:34 GMT -5
Before posting stupid responses, check what I have actually to say on the matter. The only "Communist historical revision" on the Axis losses after the war is in your head. The Germans did lie to themselves (among others, to hide their own incompetence against worse armed, numerically smaller, and racially "inferior" opponets, and/or to boost their own morale).
Doubt that a non-Communist Polish veteran would be making a hash out of nothing in his own book with at least one hundred other Polish witnesses knowing about it.
Again, read the posting I made, and it clearly shows that Axishistory is biased, in spite of that they falsely present themselves as "unbiased" and "balanced".
Do a more careful job of reading, or learn to read:
asaland.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=prime&action=display&thread=1137532619
German records may not have been perfect but it's fair to come to the conclusion, which axishistory Had, that communist history writing would be even more so. No doubt there would be discrepancies, however unlike Hildebrand suggests, the reasons could be wholly unrelated to the real reason. Which could be attributed to the immensity of the war. On the eastern front alone there was something like 2 million attacks and counter-attacks. No wonder there would be differences. You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask IF the Germans lied, I asked why they would lie. What did they have to prove? were they fully aware that they were going to loose the war and have all of what they documented scrutinized? They had no reason to lie, communists did. Communists lie, the lied about Holdomar they lied about Katyn, yet they can't lie in the Balkans? Bogdan Hillebrandt's proposal that Poland's documentation is more trustworthy is bullocks. The home army had just as much of a motive to lies as the Balkan communists. I am sure that you consider someone like Jan Karski a trustworthy source, huh? typical. By the way I wonder why you wouldn't mention the Chetnilk or Muslims or jews or Ustace and all their records? They're bound to be even more contradictory. After all the majority of those whom died in the Balkans were cause by inter Balkan civil conflict. Not just that but the vast majority of people that died at the hands of that are attributed to the Germans, were combative deaths not wanton execution. That was left for Tito and Pavelic. You're just a communist German hating polish chauvinist.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 5:39:59 GMT -5
The USSR saved the world from the Nazi bastards! The Americans adn British didnt even oipen a WEstern front till 1944 when Russia was already pushing the Nazi Pigs into Central Europe. Long Live the Proletarian Victory over imperialism!
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Post by henerte on Jan 18, 2006 6:05:15 GMT -5
What's wrong with him?
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 6:50:03 GMT -5
He is a proven propagandist. Not only that, he even amends his own lies to fulfill different agendas. This is one version of a secret report that was to be sent to the polish govt in england and spread around among various other political circles, with certain revisions going to certain people. With the first article being the closest to what he actually experienced while overseeing soviet occupied Poland, where he was ultimately arrested by the soviets and then transfered to the Germans, from whom he escaped. Karski describes the atmosphere of Soviet Poland in this excerpt, mainly addressing Jewish collaboration and Polish opinion: Karski sympathizes with the treacherous jews and paints poles as blood thirsty: Now he claims the Poles are Indifferent observers rather than bloodthirsty: Now he amends the story, this time the propaganda is aimed towards the sensibilities of Anglo-French leftist liberal politicians that might be offended by the above candor, but is also addressed to American and western Jewish oligarchies and other jews with political clout. Now the poles are portrayed as sympathetic to jews and fed up with the murderous Germans. Playing off popular notions of many in the west. This was just one single report. Karski kept up the facade years later, to which his only motivation seems to be his own personal recognition no matter whom it went against. He was featured in a Jewish movie called SHOAH introduced as an "eyewitness to the holocaust" and a "righteous gentile". Interestingly enough none of the discussion included his "eye-witness" report of his infiltration of Belzec, which was described by Karski as nothing more than a transit camp on the railway. Which is distinctly not as is claimed a death camp where more than a half a million people were gassed.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 17:03:12 GMT -5
partisans won. end of story Communists won. Bolsheviks won. It was reaaally heaven on earth, a true workers paradise after that. All screaming down the tracks towards Chernobyl.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 18, 2006 17:14:57 GMT -5
Loser of Pain, can you even read? Your own post shows you can't. 1) I already mentioned why the Germans would want to lie: The Germans did lie to themselves (among others, to hide their own incompetence against worse armed, numerically smaller, and racially "inferior" opponets, and/or to boost their own morale).
2) Hillebrandt does not suggests here anything; he only mentions what a German document had to say on the engagement in question. You can draw the conclusions for yourself, only that you don't want to. 3) It was the Ukrainian Nationalists and their Nazi allies who lied about the fictional "Ukrainian Famine-Genocide".4) This has nothing to do with either Jan Karski or the "Home Army". Non-Communist does not automatically mean it, which once again shows you don't know how to read. 5) Oh really, and who killed so many innocent people in Poland and the Soviet Union if not the Germans? Their allies and quislings are just convinient scape-goats, just like during the Warsaw Uprising the most murderous and bloodthirsty units were regular German front-line units, not the infamous ones like that of Kaminski or Dirlewanger, but it was they who got predominantly blamed for the genocidal atrocities, in order to white-wash the regular German frontsoldaten!Besides, you're a self-cofessed Holocaust-denier; there is no need to have this conversation with you. asaland.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=prime&action=display&thread=1137532619
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 17:20:28 GMT -5
The USSR saved the world from the Nazi bastards! The Americans adn British didnt even oipen a WEstern front till 1944 when Russia was already pushing the Nazi Pigs into Central Europe. Long Live the Proletarian Victory over imperialism! Tens of thousands of my mother's countrymen, of my people, were saved thanks to German retreat policies in the Reichs General Government. Victorious Proletariat elites turned into oligarchic thugs who now sell Ukrainian women into sexual slavery. Genocide continues, even if it's a whorehouse whisp rather than a billowing oven chimney.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 18, 2006 17:29:41 GMT -5
Loser of Pain, can you even read? Your own post shows you can't. The fact that you can only respond with juvenile personal attacks rather speak to history makes you a bit of a troll. A chest beater. A knuckledragger of the blogosphere But since you discount DukeofPain altogether, let's you and I talk here. Maybe we can bridge some gaps
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 17:30:21 GMT -5
Boost their own morale? by making up lies for their own archives??? And why can't you answer why it is that the trustworthy Tito regime should've been used, and not the chetniks or other schisms? It's becuase you're a communist! [/B] 2) Hillebrandt does not suggests here anything; he only mentions what a German document had to say on the engagement in question. You can draw the conclusions for yourself, only that you don't want to. 3) It was the Ukrainian Nationalists and their Nazi allies who lied about the fictional "Ukrainian Famine-Genocide".4) This has nothing to do with either Jan Karski or the "Home Army". Non-Communist does not automatically mean it, which once again shows you don't know how to read. 5) Oh really, and who killed so many innocent people in Poland and the Soviet Union if not the Germans? Their allies and quislings are just convinient scape-goats, just like during the Warsaw Uprising the most murderous and bloodthirsty units were regular German front-line units, not the infamous ones like that of Kaminski or Dirlewanger, but it was they who got predominantly blamed for the genocidal atrocities, in order to white-wash the regular German frontsoldaten!Besides, you're a self-cofessed Holocaust-denier; there is no need to have this conversation with you. asaland.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=prime&action=display&thread=1137532619[/quote] Self confessed holocaust denier? Didn't you just say Holodomar was a hoax? bwa hahahaha the irony. You're a commie. End of story. You don't even speak for Poland, you speak for communist bolshevik scum.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 18, 2006 17:31:34 GMT -5
You're mistaking Ukrainian Communists with Ukrainian Gangster Capitalists. You see, Capitalists is the key word here. And by the way, these things did not happen during good old Communist days. What makes one appreciate the Communist rule that much more. :-) PS - Loser of Pain, I suppose you speak for Poland?! No kidding. asaland.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=prime&action=display&thread=1137532619
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