Albanians

[labi]

australoserbicus said:

dude, your posting mainly ottoman era maps in which Albanians had a fair bit of control of Kosovo thanks to the preferential treatment they got from the ottomans.

I think i maybe a little mis-understood in that i do believe that there have always been Albanians in Kosovo, the way they became a majority is the only part that concerns me.

Also i know of balkan mentality & of Albanians, in particular Kosovo Albanians, in fact at one stage they made up around 70% of my friends so i know them very well. My interest in Kosovo also spans from the fact that my fathers family originated from their & had to migrate north due to ottoman issues around 350-400 years back, well thats as far back as he can trace his family tree.

And dude it is also well known about post WW2 migrations of Albanians to Kosovo to join the already present Albanian population there to seek a better life in the more prosperous Yugoslavia. I'm sure there were a few cases in which the went in opposing directions but you can't deny that a very large amount settled to Kosovo to join there bretheren in post WW2.

I may also be coming off as a little anti-Albanian, but i'm not really, i actually believe Serbs & Kosovo Albs share alot of genetics given they look alike (Dinaric looking). This to me shows shared genetics rather than possible enviromental effects causing Dinaricism.

what do you mean ottoman maps? fine show me a map made by russians. i even showed you a serbian map.

also check the yugoslav census of 1921. albs made 2/3 of according to serbian organised census. so how are you going to say albs became the majority in titos time. there was not an outflow of albs from albania to kosovo in titos times, at least not anything major, the borders were sealed and border guards shot anyone trying to escape.
even after ww2 according to yugo census albs made around 62-64% of population. it was the outflow of serbs from kosovo to better economically regions to the north followed by high birth rates of kosovo albs that kosovo became more and more albanian.

[labi]

australoserbicus said:

Anywayz all that is the past & now we must focus on the future... I just hope the both parties in the Kosovo final solution can compromise. What do you think is the best solution for current day Kosovo?

thats a good question. the best solution would be for kosovo to become its own republic that cannot secede but it is to be own republic(with its own soccer team BTW). sorry i want to see albs have their own teams in sports. ;D
and ofcourse serbia stops the propoganda and stereotypes they made of albanians for a century now. if albanians are to be part of SiCG they have to be literally equal citizens. this is the best solution because i hate to see further cold relations between serbs and albs. like you said were very alike. its kind of sad we cant be friends with people so similar to us. and albs to have their own republic is very important. if albs are ever going to be a visible people in europe kosovo needs to be controled by albs. so its very important for us to have strong control of kosovo. and doing that without seceding is only through a republic.

however most serbians dont accept albanians as equals and are very racist in attitudes. look at all the trashy muslim-terrorist articles made tiresly by serbian writers. most kosovo albs hate serbians equally. basically deep wounds have been inflicted and im not sure if they can healed.

[australoserbicus]

I kinda corrected myself regarding the maps being ottoman in a previous post, i still thought i saw one in there but dont have the time at the moment to re-check. However i did see alot of German language in those maps & if they are of German source then they are likley to be biased against Serbs. The Cvijic map seemed a little unclear & coudnt read it very well.

As for the census of 1921, i am unsure of that one & will need to check it out, but i think you could be right. As for the Tito issue i meant to say that his policies helped in the Albanians becoming an 'overwhelming' majority in the province. Serbs did flee the region & it wasn't only better econimic prospects that drove them.

I totally agree with your last post, it would be a compromise by both parties as no one gets it entirely their own way. It's true the about the racism part also, i have seen alot on the frontlines of both peoples (being a Serb growing up with many Albanians friends). They are deep wounds & i think with a better education system in place & good economy i'm sure can help it heal the old wounds. But in order to get that we must work together.

[labi]

here is another version of cvijic map....


he reduces albs everywhere. even in south albania he greek ethnic line right next to my parents villages which i know is not true. he creates an ethnicty called albanised serbs which inhabit most of north albania mized with real albanians(whatever the real one are ).

when i meant albs need strong of kosovo i didnt mean rule with an iron fist or something.lol
kosovo is fertile area(the most fertile than any inhabited by albs) and rich in minerals. with self-control they would become the center of albanian culture in music, economy, movies, sports you name it. their markets opening would greatly help isolated north albania which is the poorest part of albania. albania itself would be no more than a country with light industry and tourism, kosovo is the only place where albanians can rise and develop further.

for the 1921 census just type yugoslav 1921 census kosovo, it should be somewhere in google.

and yes i agree titos policies did help albanians become more dominant in kosovo.

[byz]

It's interesting to see how politics affects cartography - I'm sure that the distribution of Albanians is wider than this map is making out.

[australoserbicus]

byz said:

It's interesting to see how politics affects cartography - I'm sure that the distribution of Albanians is wider than this map is making out.

Well that depends on the period the map is refering too. If based in more recent times than yeah, probably wider. Notice the Albanised Serb areas he creates which Labi mentions in a previous post, are pretty much where the highest concetration of dinarid Albanian folk live.

[Celetron]

It's interesting to see how politics affects cartography - I'm sure that the distribution of Albanians is wider than this map is making out.

I find the map actually very fair...and objective, regarding the distribution of the peoples. Byz look at Peloponnese and Euböa...the map shows very clearly the arvanites of there, northern Greece is pred. slavic. I find the map pretty fair and truth representing. Now regarding the kosovar albanians calling serbs....thats a totally different issue, dont know what the serb guy thought of them. We must distinguish....the peoples distribution is correctly shown in my opinion. Also is Greek peopled Northern Epirus not too big, only near the borders. Koritsa is fully albanian Argirokastron and Agioi Saranta mixed. I dont find the map biased here.

[labi]

australoserbicus said:

Well that depends on the period the map is refering too. If based in more recent times than yeah, probably wider. Notice the Albanised Serb areas he creates which Labi mentions in a previous post, are pretty much where the highest concetration of dinarid Albanian folk live.

this is a joke right? be serious man. serbs in kosovo were not that numerous in 1918. even the yugoslav 1921 census map doest agree. serbs in cvijic map are incresed twofold. cvijic is just like arkan, racist pig. now the fact that serbian public supports such individuals to lead them and embrace their ideas is why the "lets get along crap" will not work. albanians dont owe their dinarism to serbs. albania has a frequency of dinarids equal to serbia.
now for some things for you to think about. you think cvijiv visited every part of albania? every region? everyone? how did he learn who is albanised serbs and whose not? how can he distinguish?
cvijic work is scientific justification for greater serbian politics.
in every forum, there serbs claiming albanian cities as far as durres, talking about "albanised" serbs.
you didnt get along with your own borthers, i dont think serbs are capable of geting along with kosovo albanians.

[labi]

i just relized cvijic made two maps. one for 1912 and one for 1918.
this is the 1912......


zoomed version
www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_serbs_1914.jpg

cvijic creates serbian presence in south albania and central albania. this guy is insane! he also reduces gheg albanian presence considerably. lets look at a bulgarian version of macedonia.
www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_bulgarian_1914.jpg

the bulgar map shows albanian presence in macedonia much thicker and more pockets included unlike the racist cvijic map.

in his two maps cvijic erases albanian presence in territory montengro gained after 1913 and creates a serbian minority east of the city of shkodra in the new albanian state, which was not included in his previous map.
i aslo like how cvijic puts a huge serbian presence in the shar mountains when 20 years later in 1938 the other greater serbian doctor talks about how the albanian hold on shar mountains must be cleansed in order to properly colonise kosovo with serbs and fulfill the serbian final solution.

[labi]

celetron said:

It's interesting to see how politics affects cartography - I'm sure that the distribution of Albanians is wider than this map is making out.

I find the map actually very fair...and objective, regarding the distribution of the peoples. Byz look at Peloponnese and Euböa...the map shows very clearly the arvanites of there, northern Greece is pred. slavic. I find the map pretty fair and truth representing. Now regarding the kosovar albanians calling serbs....thats a totally different issue, dont know what the serb guy thought of them. We must distinguish....the peoples distribution is correctly shown in my opinion. Also is Greek peopled Northern Epirus not too big, only near the borders. Koritsa is fully albanian Argirokastron and Agioi Saranta mixed. I dont find the map biased here.

cvijic maps dont change the greek-ethnic line. however he bases this line either through guessing or on somebodies else work. either way the line is not correct, because there are no greek villages north of gjirokaster. gjirokaster the city itself never had a greek quater until communist days. west of gjirokaster the map is ok. now east, east of aos river the map is trash. there are no greeks in leskovik and its district. lets look at cvijic map zoomed in again......
www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_serbs_1914.jpg
see leskovik? labeled as greek but according to first hand evidence in 1904.........

Kolonia is entirely Moslem, and there are not more than 100 houses. There is little cultivable land in the neighbourhood, and the place, until quite recently, has been famed as a nest of brigands. The present disturbed state of the Turkish Empire has, however, given a good deal of employment to fighting men, and there has been no brigandage in this part for two years. Kolonia treated me, at any rate, very handsomely, and sent me on my way rested and refreshed, and escorted by a fresh couple of gendarmes.


On through a wild, bleak land of gray rock, sparsely inhabited, and for the most part uninhabitable. I grinned when I remembered that, in drawing-room meetings in England, people seriously propose to pen the 'naughty' Albanians into territory of this sort, and ask Lord Lansdowne to make the Sultan see that they stop there.


A huge white wall of snow-clad mountain with an almost level sky-line towered on one hand, grim and impassable. Leskovik, small and stony, hung high on its slope. The Police Commissary and a mounted escort dashed out to meet me, and we clattered into the main street a little before sundown, after a sixteen hours' journey.


The usual crowd gathered to see me, and it was an anxious moment, for here I was to meet my unknown travelling companion, and on him the success of my tour would largely depend. He appeared at once, and took me off to the house of a relative. I owe him many thanks, for though he had never before undertaken dragoman work, he piloted me successfully all through Albania. That I might see the wilds of the land he left his usual business route, and through all the consequent hardships and fatigues he was always cheery and helpful and good-natured.


Leskovik is a quite small place, solid and stony, built much like a North Wales village, but clean and tidy, the population mostly Bektashite Moslems. Some of the Christian women had a small cross tattooed between their eyebrows. There is a small church and a Greek school. The town exports dried meat, the flesh of the mountain sheep, and has to import almost all its corn. Such cultivable land as there is is well worked.


I was now in the vilayet of Janina, which is more under Turkish power than any other part of Albania. Its Vali is much hated, and it is the only one of the three Albanian vilayets I went through in which the Christian Albanians complained of persecution. This arises from the fact that the taxes in this part are farmed out to several powerful and notorious Moslem Begs, who, by exacting double and treble, even ten times, the dues by force of arms, and keeping the difference, find it worth while to support the Turkish Government. I was assured there were plenty of 'good' Begs, but that only the 'bad ' ones had Government appointments.


Nor does the Christian population alone fear persecution. I was given a message to the effect that the Moslems were very pleased that I should visit their town, and were sorry they could not ask me to visit them, but some years ago an Austrian Consul had passed this way, and by invitation had spent the night at a Moslem house. Its master was shortly afterwards arrested and sent into exile without trial. The Kaimmakam, a young Albanian who speaks French well, came to see me twice, and expressed very liberal views. All religions to him were but paths to the same place: we must travel by the road; whether we go by the church or the mosque makes no matter. It is the same God. When he went anywhere he went to mosque, 'but what we have to remember is that we are all Albanians. In England,' he added, 'there are many religions, and people do not kill each other about it.' Poor man ! he thought we were civilized, and had never heard of Passive Resisters. He questioned me about the Bulgarians, and was eager for news. This hatred of the Exarchists for the Patriarchists-—could I explain it? In order to free themselves from Moslem rule, here are the Christians who amuse themselves by killing each other! For himself, he did not like the Bulgarians, but he was sorry for the poor devils of peasants who were the victims of politicians. He asked me to tell him the truth about the state of the burnt villages, and said he was glad someone had supplied food. 'But, I believe,' he added with a smile, 'that they did not make an Exarchist of you ! Mademoiselle, I can promise you that you will find friends in Albania.'


From Leskovik I rode to Postenani, my guide's home, by a rough track through wild mountains skirting round Malesin, a huge isolated sugar-loaf which, sixty-five years ago, was held as a fortress by one of Ali Pasha's Begs, who defended it successfully against the Turk for several years. Finally they discovered and cut off his water-supply, and he surrendered. He had three houses upon it: one at the top, one at the base, and one halfway up. Only the latter remains, and his son, the present Beg, is very poor.


Postenani, a small village, lies very high, with a valley below it and a huge and almost perpendicular cliff towering at the back. It is almost all Christian. My arrival caused great excitement, no foreigner having been there lately, and never a woman; and I was received with the greatest kindness and lavish hospitality. Any amount of visitors called on me, and I paid return visits on all. I am afraid to say how much black coffee, rakija, jam, water, and sweet-stuff I swallowed. They all had to be partaken of in each house. Few houses possessed chairs or tables, but they were comfortable and well-to-do.
The floor, covered with scarlet and black rugs of good design; the walls, panelled with dark wood almost up to the raftered, often well-carved, ceiling, the hooded stone fire-place, with its blazing logs, made a rich setting for the athletic figures of the young men, with their white fustanellas frilling round them, and the handsome women, clad for the most part in dark blue— grave, dignified, sober people, strong, well set up, and healthy. Much ceremony is observed. The young treat the elder with great deference. The women always kissed me, and laid my hand against their foreheads. The elder lady of the house sits with the guests, the son's wife waits on everyone, stands all the time, and leaves the room backwards. The houses were specklessly clean, the boards scrubbed to whiteness, the cups and cooking utensils shining.
The fame of the help given to Macedonia had spread and raised high hopes. Surely, if England had helped the Bulgars they would help the Albanians when they knew their needs. I was distressed by the hopes founded on my visit. One woman declared that good could not fail to come of it.


Brigandage and the Government, I was told, were what they sufferedfrom. The Government robbed them, and gave them no protection at all. The richer men paid armed guards; the others subscribed for two more. They greatly feared the men of the Kolonia district, but vowed I was safe, as there was no one in the village who would betray my presence to outsiders. Were it known, they would probably be raided, as I was worth putting to ransom. Moslems took to brigandage to escape conscription and to gain money to pay for exemption from military service. They were chiefly from rugged districts where there no means of earning enough otherwise.


It was a dog's life in the Turkish army. Many of those who had taken up brigandage were amongst the strongest and most intelligent. In any other land such men would be good citizens. Here they lived like wild beasts on the mountain, and robbed rather than be robbed and oppressed by the Government. Such is brigandage from the native point of view. They dreaded the brigands, but they pitied them, and regarded them as the victims of circumstances. My guide was afraid to travel anywhere with me without a gendarme or two, as, had anything happened to me, he would have been accused of connivance.


I stayed some days with the kindly, simple villagers, many of whom had earned their money, as did my guide, in other parts. There seemed to be a great deal of esprit de corps among them. Those who had money paid taxes for those who had not, and made up the sum due from the village; so also are the dowries for the poor girls subscribed by the community. The women marry at sixteen or eighteen, generally under twenty. The daughter of a well-to-do peasant is expected to bring with her the value of £T100.


Halfway up the cliff, not far from the village, is-a hot sulphur spring, reached by a narrow path hacked in the rock-face, all wet and slippery, with a sheer precipice below, the last pieces very bad, but they drag invalids up it. Two cranky huts are stuck like swallows' nests on the ledge. The water bubbles and rumbles loudly within, and hot steam spouts forth. This is highly esteemed as a rheumatism cure. There is no doctor within miles, and the people prayed me to bring some water to England and have it analyzed to see if it would serve as a cure for other things; but, unluckily, though, after untold escapes, I conveyed a glass bottleful in my saddle-bags all the way to London safely, the analysisfailed, and the poor people will be disappointed.


Poor people, hard - working, living strenuous, dangerous lives in the little oasis they have made among the mountains, who tendered their hospitality with such kingly courtesy, I was sorry to leave them. But time was flying. My guide made up his bale of goods, and the Kaimmakam sent over a couple of 'suvarris' with a polite message that I was to ride one of their horses if I wished. We had one pack and two saddle mules. The 'kirijee'—a tall young fellow in a fustanella, with a very large sheath-knife as long as a Roman sword—strode alongside and took rides on top of the pack now and again.


Loading up and farewells took some time, but at last we were off into the heart of the mountains, away over great loose stones, through wildly magnificent scenery, barren and lifeless, like the bones of a dead world; then over the pass and along a hoof-wide track high along the mountain-side. Down far, far below lay the valley of the Viosa, green and fertile, 'all a-blowing and a-growing,' and the heights beyond were fiercely blue.


The leap from winter and the wilderness to spring, and colour was dazzlingly sudden. Had I been a poet I should have written a verse about it. The sunshine warmed the heart of the pack-mule; he sang aloud, leapt with all four feet at once off the ground, wagged his tail, lashed out freely, and played like a lamb upon the giddy brink.


The descent was far too abrupt for riding. We scrambled down somehow, and got to the bottom in an hour. Halfway down, in a copse, was a tiny stone chapel, now disused, as all the neighbouring tiny villages have turned Moslem. I was told, however, that it was miraculously protected, and no one dared cut wood near it. This was evidently true, for the trees were the largest in the neighbourhood. The villages scattered about the mountain's foot were mere groups of ten or twenty cottages, but all stone, and solidly built.

www.peacelink.nu/Boker/Durham/Durham_III.html

cvijic map again shrinks albanians. the alb-greek border is perfect north of vjose river. with 2 greek villages in permet district and one alb village in ionnina district. other than that the border is flawless. the area in leskovik is not greek like in cvijic map.
cvijic alos makes the area of lunxheri as greko-alb mixed when in reality lunxheri is all albanian. lunxheri lies just north of gjirokaster.
other than that i dont see any other problems with the greek-alb line, although i admit i dont know much about greek epirus so i wouldnt know if cvijic is favoring albs or greeks in that part of the region.

[Liquid Len]

australoserbicus said:

According to Albo-Illyrian studies, most Illyrian people were also Dinaric...I say thats possible but i'm not 100%.

According to a German study from 1979, only four Illyrian skulls from Albania had been found and described. They had an average CI of 78,0. But to conclude from this that the Illyrians were not pred. Dinaric seems a little daring. But on the other hand, there had been much more Illyrian skulls found from former Yugoslavia, and they had a similar mesocephalic mean CI. So it looks like that at least the more Northern Illyrians were not predominantly Dinaric. Nevertheless it’s possible that there had been differences between northern and southern Illyrian tribes. To my knowledge, many Illyrian graves had been discovered in Albania in the seventies (and possibly later), but I don’t know anything about the measurements of the skulls. Perhaps this is what the Albo-Illyrian studies are referring to. (?)

[australoserbicus]

labi said:

australoserbicus said:

Well that depends on the period the map is refering too. If based in more recent times than yeah, probably wider. Notice the Albanised Serb areas he creates which Labi mentions in a previous post, are pretty much where the highest concetration of dinarid Albanian folk live.

this is a joke right? be serious man. serbs in kosovo were not that numerous in 1918. even the yugoslav 1921 census map doest agree. serbs in cvijic map are incresed twofold. cvijic is just like arkan, racist pig. now the fact that serbian public supports such individuals to lead them and embrace their ideas is why the "lets get along crap" will not work. albanians dont owe their dinarism to serbs. albania has a frequency of dinarids equal to serbia.
now for some things for you to think about. you think cvijiv visited every part of albania? every region? everyone? how did he learn who is albanised serbs and whose not? how can he distinguish?

cvijic work is scientific justification for greater serbian politics.
in every forum, there serbs claiming albanian cities as far as durres, talking about "albanised" serbs.
you didnt get along with your own borthers, i dont think serbs are capable of geting along with kosovo albanians.

If that map was from 1918 then it appears he did overestimate the Serb population in Kosovo. Him being a racist, probably to a degree. As for the Dinaricsm part, i never stated Albs owed this to Serbs, to me both being equally Dinaric shows the a very possible common ancestry, to which we both owe.

On Cvijic classifying "Albanised Serbs", The map seems to show that those he calls "Albanised Serbs" in are pred. Dinaric regions. So, it appears by his logic anyway, any Alb that looked Dinaric was pooled into the "Albanised Serb" category. Now he may have thought they owed Dinaricism to Serbs but i don't, as i stated above.

[labi]

australoserbicus said:

If that map was from 1918 then it appears he did overestimate the Serb population in Kosovo. Him being a racist, probably to a degree. As for the Dinaricsm part, i never stated Albs owed this to Serbs, to me both being equally Dinaric shows the a very possible common ancestry, to which we both owe.

On Cvijic classifying "Albanised Serbs", The map seems to show that those he calls "Albanised Serbs" in are pred. Dinaric regions. So, it appears by his logic anyway, any Alb that looked Dinaric was pooled into the "Albanised Serb" category. Now he may have thought they owed Dinaricism to Serbs but i don't, as i stated above.

its the 1912 map that shows more serbs. in 1918 some alb areas are shranked but so are imaginary serbian presence in central albania(shkumbin valley), and in 1918 more are labeled as albanised serbs.
dinarids both in serbia and albania are common in the more mountainous regions also the most tribal areas, the parts that were more loosely held by ottoman control.

[Celetron]

cvijic maps dont change the greek-ethnic line. however he bases this line either through guessing or on somebodies else work. either way the line is not correct, because there are no greek villages north of gjirokaster. gjirokaster the city itself never had a greek quater until communist days. west of gjirokaster the map is ok. now east, east of aos river the map is trash. there are no greeks in leskovik and its district. lets look at cvijic map zoomed in again......
www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_serbs_1914.jpg
see leskovik? labeled as greek but according to first hand evidence in 1904.........

Labi dont forget he cannot refer to every little village...so he is always marking a particular region...and Leskovik is marked as greek albanian mixed....the same goes then also for the region of argirokastron...the marked region is greek alb mixed...now..the more such a map shows a bigger region the more it gets undetailled....I find the big, detailed map still very good and worthly. Yet I dont know any better alternative. Do you?

[labi]

byz said:

An ancient southern Greek writer actually made a comment (more like an insult, lol) about the Greek tribe of the Chaones from Epirus - he said something to the effect that they had heads as round as mushrooms, and that because of this they didn't need to wear hats to protect themselves from the sun. I don't really believe that the ancient southern Greeks were of lighter pigmentation (but there must have been, and still is, a fair amount of regional variation)- but I do think the Dorians would have looked fairly Alpine. Ancient sources (wish I could remember which ones) seem to say that the Athenians were fairly dark in appearance, and Greek art seems to corroborate this (mind you, the Athenians were said to be the least Hellenised people on the mainland, which I reckon is pretty ironic).

Labi - may I ask which part of Southern Albania your family is from?

byz, regarding the head shape thing. i dont know wether he meant alpine or the type of head with an oversized frontal cortex. a trait still present among some south albies. like the writer from gjirokaster ismail kadare. here is one of my distant relatives(i saw this while going through my parents old photos).......