Albanians

[byz]

A thought came to me today about the Albanians, and I'd thought I'd put it to you knowledgeable people of the forum -

My premise is that the first Albanian speakers were Balkan natives living somewhere between present day Croatia and Romania. In the later Middle Ages (10th-13th centuries?) they migrated into northern Epirus and assimilated the local population of other Balkan and Greek tribes. This would explain potential cultural similarities between southern Albanians and the ancient Chaonians in dress and vocal music, and also - because I believe that they are both primarily ancient Balkan groups - the genetic similarity between Greeks and Albanians.

I don't know a great deal about Albanian history, and I don't mean to offend anyone - so if I have said anything blatantly stupid or frustrating, please excuse my naivety . Does anyone have any comments or suggestions about this theory?

[penetratorx]

Albanians I've met tend to say they are the modern Illyrians although a Bulgarian guy I worked with who was quite educated about the history of the Balkans disputed this vehemently.

[Mimers]

It was only after visiting Dodona that I realized that Albania was on the european continent. I never really heard anything about it, and when I did I thought it was in the middle east.

I'm glad I learned something from this place. But then again, here where I grew-up, we only learn limited geography, they really didn't teach us much on international geography. Unlike europe, where children actually learn the world map!! Oh well...

[labi]

byz said:

A thought came to me today about the Albanians, and I'd thought I'd put it to you knowledgeable people of the forum -

My premise is that the first Albanian speakers were Balkan natives living somewhere between present day Croatia and Romania. In the later Middle Ages (10th-13th centuries?) they migrated into northern Epirus and assimilated the local population of other Balkan and Greek tribes. This would explain potential cultural similarities between southern Albanians and the ancient Chaonians in dress and vocal music, and also - because I believe that they are both primarily ancient Balkan groups - the genetic similarity between Greeks and Albanians.

I don't know a great deal about Albanian history, and I don't mean to offend anyone - so if I have said anything blatantly stupid or frustrating, please excuse my naivety . Does anyone have any comments or suggestions about this theory?

i agree with your theory, albo ethnos probably evolved around moesia. pushed south-west by slavic migrations into northern albania. there the albs re-emerged. their tribal structure gave them the advantage in the area because it was loosely held by whichever power held. by 10th-13th century albanian tribes expand south, in my opinion nova epirus was mostly slavic with slavic speakers while greek enclaves on the trade centers and the coastal plains, old epirus was mostly greek speaking.
alb tribes on their expansion pushed the vlach tribes south into the pindos.

assimilation of the locals is highly disputable, most assimiliation happened in the urban areas. the country side saw less assimilation. alb tribes were violent, many locals would have fled.

=========
EDIT: in south albania one can easily notice villagers are more dinarid than city folks.

[byz]

Yeah - that makes sense. But if assimilation was uncommon, how would you explain shared traditions in the area, and genetic similarity? Many Arvanites were assimilated into Greek society - Wikipedia puts the estimate of Greek with Arvanitic or partial Arvanitic ancestry at 1,600,000 - but that's less than 1/10th of the Greek population (and then in many cases, individuals would only be partially Arvanitic), and I don't think it could explain the extent of the genetic similarity. Greeks and Albanians are suppposedly closer than Greeks and Western Turks and Greeks and Southern Italians. It seems to make sense that the Albanian tribes may have assimilated a decent number of Greek and Balkan tribes - and this combined with Albanian gene-flow into Greece could explain the genetic affinity.

[tonynatuzzi]

I could see why you would confuse Albania for a Middle Eastern country since they are the least culturally European country on the continent.

[Dean]

byz said:

Yeah - that makes sense. But if assimilation was uncommon, how would you explain shared traditions in the area, and genetic similarity? Many Arvanites were assimilated into Greek society - Wikipedia puts the estimate of Greek with Arvanitic or partial Arvanitic ancestry at 1,600,000 - but that's less than 1/10th of the Greek population (and then in many cases, individuals would only be partially Arvanitic), and I don't think it could explain the extent of the genetic similarity. Greeks and Albanians are suppposedly closer than Greeks and Western Turks and Greeks and Southern Italians. It seems to make sense that the Albanian tribes may have assimilated a decent number of Greek and Balkan tribes - and this combined with Albanian gene-flow into Greece could explain the genetic affinity.

I also read that Albanians/Arvanites migrated into Greece and into the Peloponnese. I think Albanians migrated into my ancestral region, when it was depopulated hundreds of years ago. The funny thing is that my family and people from my region show, for all intents and purposes, no cultural remnants of Albanians. There are few Albanian surnames and toponyms in my region. I know that none of my family members or people who I know from around my region are bi-lingual, like I read some Arvanites are or were; these people spoke Greek and Arvanitika/Albanian.

If we from my region are of partial Albanian stock, we assimilated completely. I've seen some Hellenized Albanian surnames, like Gikas (Gika) and Lekkas (Leka), even Arvanitis . There is one town near us that might have an Arvanitic toponym: Daras. As far as music, my older relatives are into Epirotic Tsamika and some other folk music that might be Turkish-influenced.

I happened to visit Wikipedia yesterday, where I read the Lord's Prayer in Arvanitika. I couldn't recognize a single word, except for some words of Hellenic origin.

[byz]

May I ask where you ancestral region is in Greece? There is a general (though not always reliable) pattern that most of the coastal villages in Greece remained solidly Greek, whilst Albanians tended to settle in the less populous countryside - some were eventually assimilated by the natives of the region as their numbers grew. Those whose ancestors were not Hellenised when they settled, eventually ceased speaking Arvanitika as their villages began to empty into the big cities. Arvanitika is an endangered language and is likely to disappear (which I think is rather sad), much the same way that Griko is disappearing in Southern Italy. I think that despite accounts of the countryside in Greece being "depopulated" during periods of the Middle Ages, that Greeks never ceased living there. I believe that in many cases, the fewer Greeks in the countryside may have been assimilated or partially assimilated by Albanians (if the numbers of the latter were greater, or if they exerted greater pressure on their environment), only for their partly Albanian descendants to be eventually re-Hellenised. It's like culturo-linguistic ping-pong! I would be interested to find out if the core of the population of Greek Epirus is of Hellenised Albanian stock, or if the Albanians assimilated natives Greek tribes - Albanians and Epirotes have many similarities - but it seems like a really difficult and potentially loaded task trying to figure out the causes!

[arthas]

penetratorx said:

Albanians I've met tend to say they are the modern Illyrians although a Bulgarian guy I worked with who was quite educated about the history of the Balkans disputed this vehemently.

There are and always will be different opinions for everything, some say also that slavs are semimongolian that todays greeks are different from ancient greeks ,that americans never landed on moon and many other stuff.

I dont know why people think that there is something great to be the descents of Illyrians, they lived in shadow of old greeks and romans and their lands were conolized by slavs ;D. Most of studies about balkan peoples and languages say that albanians are descents of Thraco-Illyrians that were not slavizaded or latinizided.
Here is a very ineresting site about some old languages
www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20balkan%20ellas.html

I could see why you would confuse Albania for a Middle Eastern country since they are the least culturally European country on the continent .

You serbs and greeks like to talk how albanian culture is middle eastern while eating kebabs and listening turkish influenced music.

[Dean]

byz said:

May I ask where you ancestral region is in Greece? There is a general (though not always reliable) pattern that most of the coastal villages in Greece remained solidly Greek, whilst Albanians tended to settle in the less populous countryside - some were eventually assimilated by the natives of the region as their numbers grew.

We are from the villages surrounding Tripolis, Arcadia. This area has had a tumultuous population history. Beside foreign invasions and settlements, I read that even some Cretans settled in this region at the end of the Greek War of Independence.

To me it makes sense that because coastal areas were more attractive than some inland areas, economically and otherwise, they were better defended.

Many Turks lived in Tripolis, which was called Tripolitsa, and before that, Drobogliza, but during the Independence war so many were reportedly slaughtered in Tripolis that Kolokotronis allegedly said and possibly figuratively meant, that while crossing Tripolis, his horse didn't touch the ground due to walking upon so many Turkish corpses.

There are some who said that many of our heroes of the Independence war were Arvanites, but I know nothing of the veracity of such statements.

[byz]

When I was in Arcadia, I noticed a tangible Slavic element - many people had semi-Slavic, semi-Greek features and some had parly Slavic names. It was interesting because I didn't notice this anywhere else in Greece. I didn't, however, see every part of Arcadia, so I don't know if this applies to the whole region or if it's localised - besides, you can usually tell through family folklore and traditions.
I think it's true that some War of Independence heroes were in fact Arvanites, but there is still some controversy about the issue - were the Souliotes and the Maniates of Epirus Arvanites, or the descendants of the ancient Selloi?

[byz]

arthas said:

I could see why you would confuse Albania for a Middle Eastern country since they are the least culturally European country on the continent .

You serbs and greeks like to talk how albanian culture is middle eastern while eating kebabs and listening turkish influenced music.

I believe Tony Natuzzi is an Italian,

[Dean]

byz said:

When I was in Arcadia, I noticed a tangible Slavic element - many people had semi-Slavic, semi-Greek features and some had parly Slavic names. It was interesting because I didn't notice this anywhere else in Greece. I didn't, however, see every part of Arcadia, so I don't know if this applies to the whole region or if it's localised - besides, you can usually tell through family folklore and traditions.

There is definitely a Slavic element in regards to surnames. However, but at least one of my relatives with a Slavic surname has Gracile features--dark hair, slight build and leptoprosopic features. In the case of my family, whatever Slavic culture we had we lost. We seem to be run-of-the-mill Greeks, in culture. I will try and post the picture of this relative in this thread.

[labi]

byz said:

Yeah - that makes sense. But if assimilation was uncommon, how would you explain shared traditions in the area, and genetic similarity? Many Arvanites were assimilated into Greek society - Wikipedia puts the estimate of Greek with Arvanitic or partial Arvanitic ancestry at 1,600,000 - but that's less than 1/10th of the Greek population (and then in many cases, individuals would only be partially Arvanitic), and I don't think it could explain the extent of the genetic similarity. Greeks and Albanians are suppposedly closer than Greeks and Western Turks and Greeks and Southern Italians. It seems to make sense that the Albanian tribes may have assimilated a decent number of Greek and Balkan tribes - and this combined with Albanian gene-flow into Greece could explain the genetic affinity.

*shared traditions, like what? polyphonic singing? such type of singing was common even in bosnia, its still present in pockets in central serbia. its an old tradition in the balkans that died out except in south albania and epirus.
what else the kilt? likewise similar dressing was found even in the slavic montenegrins, herzegovanians, vlachs, rumanians. sounds more like a balkan dress comon to old balkan populations.
yes theres some music unity, the style, and instruments used. music however is not the only aspect of culture and is subject to change depending as how a region is administered which influences what populations come into contact. south albania and epirus have historically been ruled by same administration and included in same province. south albs and epirots have been in contact for quite a long time a common music style of prefrence evolved.
however look at albanians way of living, village settlement patterns, their tribal strucutre etc... its not the same.

* i dont know about genetic similarities. this is based on old studies. any new studies of albanians? to me what matters is looks. theres diffrence between south albs and greek epirots, especially on eastern part of south albania. even hammond mentioned that theres a a diffrence between alb epirots and greek epirots in looks. in south albania theres a very heavy slavic influence in toponyms, especially north of aos river and ironically alot of blond types look like slavs.

I think it's true that some War of Independence heroes were in fact Arvanites, but there is still some controversy about the issue - were the Souliotes and the Maniates of Epirus Arvanites, or the descendants of the ancient Selloi?

maniates were obviously greek. they didnt even speak albanian. suliots were albanian, their domestic language was alb. this is admited even by greko-phil historians such as hammond who specialised in studying epirus.

the alb component in greek epirus is small. few orthodox alb communities that existed have been assimilated. most chams fled in 1945, about 40,000 came to albania by 1946.

[labi]

arthas said:

penetratorx said:

I dont know why people think that there is something great to be the descents of Illyrians, they lived in shadow of old greeks and romans and their lands were conolized by slavs ;D. Most of studies about balkan peoples and languages say that albanians are descents of Thraco-Illyrians that were not slavizaded or latinizided.
Here is a very ineresting site about some old languages
www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20balkan%20ellas.html

exactly, i run into same difficulty with most albs. they this fascination with illyirans as if they did something great. illyrians were nothing, just warriors who made war with their neighbors. i also find it pointless why albs spent so much time identifying with, and studying illyrians. im not even sure albanian language decends from illyrians. than again does it matter? if theres no real proof why waste time. offcial alb history to me starts in 1043 AD when albs are first mentioned, and focus from there to the present.