Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 14, 2004 16:52:00 GMT -5
The fact that the most renown Greek neo-nazi of this forum (Satyros) ,is once again 100% opposed to my views is my personal medal of honor.
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Post by Satyros on Apr 14, 2004 17:33:48 GMT -5
"Greek neo-nazi"??
Come on Praetor, the PASOK days are over, did you forget that? Bravo Yorgo cannot ðÜñåé ðßðåò to the Turkish and American politicians out in the open now.
¶ñå Praetor, åóý èá óþóåéò ôçí ÅëëÜäá ñå; ¶íôå ôñÜâá óôá âÞìáôá êáé óôï äñüìï ðïõ ÷Üñáîå ï ÃéùñãÜêçò ÐáðáíäñÝïõ, îåðïýëá ôá üëá , êáôáóôñÝøáôå ôçí ÅëëÜäá êáé ôçí ÅÈÍÉÊÇ ÕÐÅÑÇÖÁÍÅÉÁ ÁÕÔÏÕ ÔÏÕ ËÁÏÕ êáé ôþñá èÝëåôå êáé ìåôÜëéá ñå êáêïìïßñçäåò....
Ìðïñåß ôï âéïôéêü åðßðåäï íá áíÝâçêå, áëëÜ ï íåïÝëëçíáò Ý÷åé ÷Üóåé (ßóùò ãéá ÐÁÍÔÁ), ôçí åëëçíéêÞ óõíåßäçóÞ ôïõ êáé áîéïðñÝðåéÜ ôïõ, áõôü åßíáé ðïõ êáôÜöåñå ï ëåãüìåíïò óïóéáëéóìüò óôçí ÅëëÜäá.<br>
ÁëëÜ ôé íá óïõ ðù êáé óÝíá, ðïõ óôï äéÜïëï óðïýäáóåò ôéò ÐïëéôéêÝò ÅðéóôÞìåò êáé áõôÜ ðïõ óðïýäáóåò; Óå êÜðïéá ÅõñùðáúêÞ ÷þñá ðïõ äéäÜóêïõíå ôçí realpolitic. ¶ñá áõôÜ óïõ ìÜèáíå íá ëåò êáé áõôÜ ëåò, óõãêáôÜâáóç, óõìâéâáóìüò êáé óêýâïõìå ôï êåöÜëé óôïõò áöÝíôåò. ÅôïéìÜæåéò ôçí ÍÅÁ ÃÅÍÉÁ ÔÙÍ ÑÁÃÉÁÄÙÍ ÑÅÅÅÅÅÅ, äïýëïõò èÝëåéò íá ìáò áöÞóåéò ãéá ðÜíôá ñå êïéìÞóççççç
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 14, 2004 18:15:06 GMT -5
Ðáëé êáëá ðïõ áðïäå÷åóáé ïôé ôï âéïôéêï åðéðåäï áíåâçêå,å÷ù áêïõóåé íá ôï áìöéóâçôïõí êé áõôï...Ôçí Åëëáäá ôçí êáôåóôñåøáí ïé ðáôñéäïêáðçëéá êáé ç åèíéêïöñïóõíç áõôùí ðïõ èáõìáæåéò. Ïëïé ïé áîéïé ðñùèõðïõñãïé áõôçò ôçò ÷ùñáò êáôáóõêïöáíôçèçêáí áðï ôá êïñáêéá ôçò åêêëçóéáò êáé ôçò áêñïäåîéáò ,ìå ðñùôï êáé êáëõôåñï ôïí Åèíáñ÷ç ìå ôï Å êåöáëáéï,Åëåõèåñéï Âåíéæåëï -ôïí åîõâñéóáí,ôïí áíáèåìáôéóáí êáé ðáñ'ïëéãï íá ôïí äïëïöïíçóïõí êéïëáò..Ãéáôé ìåñéêïé äåí áíôå÷ïõí íá äïõí ðïéïé åéíáé ïé ãíçóéïé ðáôñéùôåò.Áêïìá êáé ï ãéùñãáêçò åéíáé 1000 öïñåò ðéï ðáôñéùôçò áðï ôïí áíïçôï ôïí Óáìáñá ðïõ êáôïñèùóå óõí ôïéò áëëïéò íá çôôçèåé äéðëùìáôéêá áðï ôïõò êáêïìïéñçäåò ôïõò Óêïðéáíïõò. Äåí óðïõäáóá Realpolitic ïðùò ôçí åííïåéò. Ïé èåñìïðõëåò êé ïëåò ïé áõôïèõóéåò åéíáé ëáìðñåò óåëéäåò óôçí éóôïñéá åíïò åèíïõò áëëá ìïíï åôóé äåí ÷ôéæïíôáé ïõôå äéáôçñïõíôáé ïé Âõæáíôéíåò Áõôïêñáôïñéåò.Èåëåé êáé éíôñéãêá êáé âõæáíôéíç äïëïðëïêéá. Ï ðïëåìïò åéíáé ç óõíå÷åéá ôçò ðïëéôéêçò ìå áëëá ìåóá áëëá êáðïéïò ðñåðåé íá îåñåé ðïôå íá êáíåé ðïëåìï êáé ðïôå ï÷é.êáé åãù ðñïóùðéêá äåí åðéèõìù íá ÷áóù ôçí åîå÷ïõóá èåóç ðïõ áðïëáìâáíåé ç ÷ùñá ìïõ ãéá ÷áñç ôçò Ôïõñêéáò ðïõ ìðïñù íá ôçí óôñéìùîù äéðëùìáôéêá ïõôùò ç áëëùò.Êïéôá ðïõ åöåñáí ôïõò Óåñâïõò ïé ðáôñéäïêáðçëåò êïñùíåò ôïõ Ìéëïóåâéôò êáé óõíåéäçôïðïéçóå åðéôåëïõò ïôé èåëåéò ôçí êáôáóôñïöç ôçò Åëëáäáò. Ïóï ãéá ôï ðïéïò îåðïõëçóå ôçí ÷ùñá,áõôï ðåò ôï óôïõò öáíôáñïõò ðïõ ï Ãïõíáñçò êáé ïé ëáêåäåò ôïõ åóôåéëáí íá êõíçãçóïõí Ôïõñêïõò ìå÷ñé ôçí Áãêõñá ôï 1921 ,óôá ðáéäéá ðïõ ôï '74 óôçí åðéóôñáôåõóç åôñåîáí íá ðáñïõí ôá ïðëá êáé âñçêáí ìðáëáêéá ôïõò ôåíéò ãéáôé ç ÷ïõíôá ôá ÷å îåðïõëçóåé. Ç ðåñçöáíéá åâãáëå ôïí íåïåëëçíá ãéá ôï 114 óôï äñïìï,ãéá íá õðåíèõìéóåé óå ðáëáôé êáé áìåñéêáíïõò ðïéá åéíáé ç âïõëçóç ôïõ. Äåí ôçí å÷áóå ôçí ðåñçöáíéá ïõôå ôïôå ïõôå ôùñá. Óôéò Åõñùåêëïãåò êáëõôåñá íá øçöéóåéò ÷åñé-÷åñé ãéáôé ï Êùóôáêçò ïõôå ôá êïôóéá íá ðåé åíá îåêáèáñï íáé ç ï÷é å÷åé (áó÷åôá áí äåí ôï ðáñáäå÷åóáé,åéíáé ðñïöáíåò ðùò íáé èåëåé íá ðåé, áëëá... )
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 14, 2004 18:59:21 GMT -5
This debate transcends the established boundaries of Greek party politics, as it is obvious by the fact that Greek Socialists officially disagree with Cypriot Socialists, Greek Communists with Cypriot Communists and the Right appears utterly confused and at a complete loss. Luckily the people seem to know, perhaps instinctively, what they want. It is almost certain that the planet's overlords and their stooges will get a resounding answer in a Cypriot accent: O'I. Nothing wrong with diplomacy as long as our national Philotimon is not hurt. Since there has been a lot of talking about international relations and realpolitic, here is the position of an international relations and strategic studies professor on the subject, with whom I agree almost completely. Ï×É: Ãéá ìéá Åëåýèåñç ÊõðñéáêÞ Äçìïêñáôßá óôçí ÌåôÜ-Áíáí åðï÷Þ<br> 2 Áðñéëßïõ 2004 Ðáíáãéþôçò ¹öáéóôïò<br> ÊáèçãçôÞò Äéåèíþí Ó÷Ýóåùí-Óôñáôçãéêþí Óðïõäþí êáé ¸äñáò Jean Monnet ãéá ôçí ÅõñùðáúêÞ ÐïëéôéêÞ ÏëïêëÞñùóç www.ifestos.edu.gr <http://www.ifestos.edu.gr/> ¼×É óôï äçìïøÞöéóìá óôçí Êýðñï êáôÜ ôïõ ó÷åäßïõ Áíáí óôéò 24 Áðñéëßïõ åßíáé øÞöïò õðÝñ ôçò åëåõèåñßáò, õðÝñ ôùí áíèñùðßíùí äéêáéùìÜôùí, õðÝñ ôïõ äéåèíïýò äéêáßïõ êáé õðÝñ ìéáò âéþóéìçò êáé åëåýèåñçò ÊõðñéáêÞò Äçìïêñáôßáò. ÁöÞíåé åðßóçò ðåñéèþñéá ãéá ìéá íÝá äéáðñáãìÜôåõóç ìåôÜ ôçí 1ç Ìáßïõ ïýôùò þóôå íá äéåñåõíçèåß åÜí õðÜñ÷ïõí ðåñéèþñéá åðáíÝíùóçò ôïõ íçóéïý ìå ôñüðï ðïõ èá äéáóöáëßæåé áõôÜ ôá áãáèÜ. Áõôü ðïõ ðñïåîÜñ÷åé åßíáé ôï ãåãïíüò üôé Êýðñïò äåí èá íïìéìïðïéÞóåé ôçí äé÷ïôüìçóç êáé õðü ðéï åõíïúêÝò óõíèÞêåò ìåôÜ ôïí ÌÜéï èá Ý÷åé ôçí äõíáôüôçôá íá áñ÷ßóåé íÝåò ðñïóðÜèåéåò åéñçíéêÞò êáé âéþóéìçò ëýóçò. Áí ôåëéêÜ ôï Ï×É åðéêñáôÞóåé óôçí Êýðñï ôï íÝï ðåäßï èá åßíáé áðåßñùò ðéï åõíïúêü: Ôï ðñþôï âÞìá ðïõ èá ðñÝðåé íá ãßíåé åßíáé íá êáôåäáöéóôåß ôï áñíçôéêü «äéáðñáãìáôåõôéêü êåêôçìÝíï» ôïõ äé÷ïôïìéêïý ó÷åäßïõ Áíáí ìå ôï íá äéáêçñõ÷èåß åðéóÞìùò êáé áðïöáóéóôéêÜ üôé ôßðïôå äåí éó÷ýåé áðü ôï èÝáôñï ôïõ ðáñáëüãïõ ðïõ ðáß÷ôçêå óôçí Åëâåôßá. Ôáõôü÷ñïíá, íá ôåèïýí áìåôÜèåôïé üñïé âéþóéìçò åðßëõóçò ôïõ êõðñéáêïý ðñïâëÞìáôïò ÷ùñßò ÷ñïíéêïýò ðåñéïñéóìïýò, åêâéáóìïýò êáé ôåëåóßãñáöá. ÊáôÜ äåýôåñïí, áðü ôçí Åõñþðç èá ðñÝðåé íá æçôçèåß íá áíáëçöèïýí ðñùôïâïõëßåò ãéá Üíåõ åîáéñÝóåùí åöáñìïãÞ ôçò êïéíïôéêÞò Ýííïìçò ôÜîçò óôï êáôå÷üìåíï ìÝñïò ôçò ÊõðñéáêÞò Äçìïêñáôßáò. Ç ÐñÜîç Ðñïó÷þñçóçò, ôïíßæåôáé, áíáãíùñßæåé ìüíï Ýíá êñÜôïò êáé ãé’ áõôü ìåôÜ ôçí 1ç Ìáßïõ ôï âüñåéï ìÝñïõò ôçò Êýðñïõ èá åßíáé ôï ìüíï Ýäáöïò ôçò ÅõñùðáúêÞò ¸íùóçò ðïõ èá åßíáé êáôå÷üìåíï, áðü ìéá ìÜëéóôá äýíáìç ðïõ èÝëåé íá åíôá÷èåß óôçí Êïéíüôçôá. ÊáôÜ ôñßôïí, áðü ôá ÇíùìÝíá ¸èíç íá æçôçèåß íá åðáíÝëèïõí óôïí ðñáãìáôéêü ôïõò ñüëï ðïõ åßíáé ç äéáóöÜëéóç ôçò äéåèíïýò ôÜîçò üðùò ðñïâëÝðåôáé áðü ôéò äéåèíåßò óõíèÞêåò. ÔÝôáñôïí, áðü ôçí Ôïõñêßá íá áðáéôçèåß íá ôåñìáôßóåé Üìåóá ôçí êáôï÷Þ êáé áí èÝëåé íá ãßíåé ìÝëïò ôçò ÅÅ íá ôçñÞóåé Ýíá «ïäéêü ÷Üñôç» óýìöùíï ìå ôï äéåèíÝò äßêáéï, óýìöùíï ìå ôïí êïéíïôéêü ðïëéôéêü êáé íïìéêü ðïëéôéóìü êáé óýìöùíï ìå ôéò óõìâÜóåéò ãéá ôá Áíèñþðéíá Äéêáéþìáôá. ÐÝìðôïí, íá ðåéóèïýí ïé ôïõñêïêýðñéïé íá ðéÝóïõí ôïõò çãÝôåò ôïõò ãéá åðáíÝíùóç ôïõ íçóéïý ìå åðÝêôáóç ôçò åõñùðáúêÞò Ýííïìçò ôÜîçò óôï âüñåéï ôìÞìá ôçò Êýðñïõ. ÍÝåò åóùôåñéêÝò ðïëéôåéáêÝò ñõèìßóåéò ìðïñïýí íá óõìöùíçèïýí ìåôáîý ôùí êõðñßùí õðü ôï ðñßóìá ôçò éäéüôçôáò ôçò Êýðñïõ ùò ðëÞñïõò ìÝëïõò ôçò åõñùðáúêÞò ïéêïãÝíåéáò êáé óå óõìâáôüôçôá ìå ðÜãéåò äçìïêñáôéêÝò áñ÷Ýò êáé ôá áíèñþðéíá äéêáéþìáôá. ¸êôï, íá åðáíáëçöèåß ç ðñüôáóÞ ìáò ãéá áðïóôñáôéêïðïßçóç ìå ôïí üñï üôé èá áðï÷ùñÞóïõí üëåò áíåîáéñÝôùò ïé îÝíåò äõíÜìåéò. ÁõôÝò Ýðñåðå íá Þôáí ïé èÝóåéò ìáò ôï 2002 üôáí ç Êýðñïò ïëïêëÞñùóå ôéò äéáðñáãìáôåýóåéò Ýíôáîçò óôçí ÅÅ. Óå êÜèå ðåñßðôùóç, èá Ýðñåðå íá åß÷áìå áðáéôÞóåé áðü ôïí Ãà ôïõ ÏÇÅ íá ìçí õðïâÜëåé ðñïôÜóåéò áíôßèåôåò ìå ôïí óýã÷ñïíï íïìéêü êáé ðïëéôéêü ðïëéôéóìü ôùí äéáêñáôéêþí ó÷Ýóåùí êáé ìå ôïí ßäéï ôïí Êáôáóôáôéêü ×Üñôç ôùí ÇíùìÝíùí Åèíþí üðùò ôåëéêÜ Ýêáíå. Ôá ðñÜãìáôá, åîÜëëïõ, ïðùóäÞðïôå èá Þôáí äéáöïñåôéêÜ áí õøçëüâáèìïé ðñùèõðïõñãéêïß áîéùìáôïý÷ïé ôçò ðñïçãïýìåíçò êõâÝñíçóçò êáé ãñáöéêïß äéáíïïýìåíïé ðïõ ôïõò ðåñéÝâáëëáí äåí åß÷áí õðïóôçñßîåé ðïëý ðñéí ôïí Áíáí ìéá äé÷ïôïìéêÞ-óõíïìïóðïíäéáêÞ ëýóç ðïõ õðïíüìåõóå ôçí ðñïïðôéêÞ «åõñùðáúêÞò» ëýóçò ôïõ êõðñéáêïý ðñïâëÞìáôïò.<br> ÌåôÜ ôçí Åëâåôßá, Ýóôù êáé áí ÷Üèçêáí äýï ïëüêëçñá ÷ñüíéá, äåí åßíáé áñãÜ ãéá íá ðñïóðáèÞóïõìå íá èÝóïõìå ôéò äéáðñáãìáôåýóåéò óå ôñï÷éÜ ðïõ èá ìðïñïýóå, åíäå÷ïìÝíùò, íá ïäçãÞóåé óå ìéá âéþóéìç ëýóç. Âåâáßùò, äåí áðïêëåßåôáé áõôÞ ç ðñïóÝããéóç íá áðïôý÷åé ìå áðïôÝëåóìá ìáêñï÷ñüíéá ç Êýðñïò íá ìåßíåé de facto äéáéñåìÝíç. ÊÜðïéïò, üìùò, èá ðñÝðåé íá Ý÷åé îåêÜèáñá óôï ìõáëü ôïõ ôéò ðñïïðôéêÝò, ôá ðñïâëÞìáôá êáé ôá äéëÞììáôá åíáëëáêôéêþí åðéëïãþí. ¢ìåóç åöáñìïãÞ ôïõ ó÷åäßïõ Áíáí óçìáßíåé: i) Üìåóç äé÷ïôüìçóç ìå ôçí äéêÞ ìáò ìÜëéóôá õðïãñáöÞ, ii) åðéâñÜâåõóç ôùí ôåôåëåóìÝíùí ôçò âßáò êáé ôáõôü÷ñïíá Üìåóç ôïõñêéêÞ ôïõñêïâñåôáíéêÞ åðéêõñéá÷ßá åðß ïëïêëÞñïõ ôçò Êýðñïõ, iii) Üìåóç íïìéìïðïßçóç êáé ðïëéôïãñÜöçóç ôùí åðïßêùí, <br>iv) áðïäï÷Þ ðáíôïôéíÞò êáôáóôïëÞò ôùí áíèñùðßíùí äéêáéùìÜôùí, <br>v) ðáíôïôéíÞ êáôáóôñáôÞãçóç ðÜãéùí äçìïêñáôéêþí áñ÷þí, <br>vi) Üìåóç êáôÜñãçóç ôçò åäñáßáò ÊõðñéáêÞò Äçìïêñáôßáò êáé äçìéïõñãßá åíüò ðñïâëçìáôéêïý êáé ìç ëåéôïõñãéêïý êñáôéäßïõ êáé vii) äçìéïõñãßá ìéáò åóôßáò ôñéâþí êáé óõãêñïýóåùí óôéò åëëçíïôïõñêéêÝò ó÷Ýóåéò ðïõ èá óõíïäåýåôáé áðü ìéá ìáêñüóõñôç óôáäéáêÞ åãêáôÜëåéøç ôïõ íçóéïý áðü ôïõò åëëçíïêýðñéïõò. <br> ÔÝëïò, ç ÅëëÜäá êáé Åõñþðç èá ðëçñþóïõí ðïëý áêñéâü ôßìçìá: Áöïý ðëÝïí ç ¢ãêõñá èá Ý÷åé åðéâñáâåõèåß ãéá ôá ôåôåëåóìÝíá ôçò âßáò èá áðïèñáóõíèåß ðáíôåëþò êáé åíèáññõìÝíç áðü ôçí ÌåãÜëç Âñåôáíßá ðïõ âñßóêåôáé ðßóù áðü üëåò áõôÝò ôéò åîåëßîåéò ç Ôïõñêßá èá åéóÝëèåé óå ðïñåßá áêÜèåêôçò Ýíôáîçò óôçí ÅÅ. «Ïäéêüò ÷Üñôçò» óå ìéá ôÝôïéá ðåñßðôùóç èá õðÜñ÷åé ìüíï ðïõ ôïõò üñïõò äåí èá ôïõò èÝôåé ðëÝïí ç ÅÅ Þ ç ÅëëÜäá áëëÜ ç ¢ãêõñá êáé èá áöïñïýí ôïõò ðñþôïõò. ÅÜí ôï äé÷ïôïìéêü ó÷Ýäéï Áíáí áðïññéöèåß áðü ôïõò êõðñßïõò óôéò 24 Áðñéëßïõ, äýï åßíáé ôá ðéèáíÜ åíäå÷üìåíá: Ðñþôïí, óôï ðëáßóéï ôçò ðñïáíáöåñèåßóçò ðëáôöüñìáò èÝóåùí êáé ìéáò êáëÜ êïéíÞò óôñáôçãéêÞò ôçò Êýðñïõ êáé ôçò ÅëëÜäáò íá åðéäéù÷èåß âéþóéìç åðßëõóç ôïõ êõðñéáêïý êáé ôáõôü÷ñïíá óõíïëéêüôåñç ñýèìéóç ôùí åëëçíïôïõñêéêþí ó÷Ýóåùí óôçí âÜóç ôïõ äéåèíïýò äéêáßïõ êáé ôùí äéåèíþí óõíèçêþí ìå ôéò ïðïßåò ç Ôïõñêßá èá ðñÝðåé íá óõììïñöùèåß. Áí ç Ôïõñêßá åðéìÝíåé üôé õðÜñ÷ïõí åëëçíïôïõñêéêÝò äéáöïñÝò äåí Ý÷åé ðáñÜ íá ðñïóöýãåé óôïõò äéåèíåßò èåóìïýò ãéá åéñçíéêÞ áíôéìåôþðéóÞ ôïõò. ÊÜíïíôáò ôçí õðüèåóç üôé ç Ôïõñêßá óêïðü Ý÷åé íá ðñïóåããßóåé ðåñáéôÝñù ôçí ÅÅ, äéêüò ìáò óôü÷ïò åßíáé ìéá åðáíåíùìÝíç êáé óôáèåñÞ ÊõðñéáêÞ Äçìïêñáôßá ðïõ èá áðïôåëÝóåé ðáñÜãïíôá óôáèåñüôçôáò êáé ü÷é áóôÜèåéáò óôéò åëëçíïôïõñêéêÝò ó÷Ýóåéò ðïõ èá ôåèïýí Ýôóé óå ìéá íÝá óõíïëéêüôåñç êáé ðéï ïñèïëïãéóôéêÞ âÜóç. Áíáìößâïëá, åÜí ðáñ’ åëðßäá áõôÞ ç óôñáôçãéêÞ äåí åðéôý÷åé, óôáäéáêÜ ç äéáßñåóç ôçò Êýðñïõ åíäå÷ïìÝíùò èá ðáãéùèåß. Áí êáé ìéá ôÝôïéá åîÝëéîç åßíáé áóöáëþò áðåõêôáßá, åí ôïýôïéò, ôï åíäå÷üìåíï Üìåóçò äé÷ïôüìçóçò êáé ôïõñêéêÞò óõãêõñéáñ÷ßáò üðùò ðñïôåßíåôáé óôï ó÷Ýäéï Áíáí åßíáé áðåßñùò ÷åéñüôåñï. Ç ÊõðñéáêÞ Äçìïêñáôßá áí êáé áêñùôçñéáóìÝíç èá ðáñáìåßíåé ôïõëÜ÷éóôïí åëåýèåñç-áíåîÜñôçôç, ìÝëïò ôçò ÅõñùðáúêÞò ¸íùóçò êáé êñÜôïò ðïõ èá áíáðôýóóåé óôåíÝò ó÷Ýóåéò ìå ôçí ÅëëÜäá êáé ôá õðüëïéðá åõñùðáúêÜ êñÜôç. Ðñùôßóôùò, ïé êýðñéïé äåí èá ÷Üóïõí ôï êñÜôïò ôïõò, èá åßíáé óõëëïãéêÜ åëåýèåñïé êáé åõçìåñïýíôåò óå ìéá äçìïêñáôéêÞ Ð ïëéôåßá. ÌåëëïíôéêÜ, åÜí êáé üôáí ïé ðåñéóôÜóåéò ôï åõíïÞóïõí, ïé ôïõñêïêýðñéïé èá ìðïñïýóáí íá áðïóôáóéïðïéçèïýí áðü ôçí ¢ãêõñá êáé íá ðñïó÷ùñÞóïõí óôçí ÊõðñéáêÞ Äçìïêñáôßá. Ï ÷ñüíïò èá ðéÝæåé áõôïýò êáé ü÷é åìÜò. Óçìåßùìá 3.4.2004: ÄéÜöïñåò öÞìåò ìéëïýí ðåñß «ãñáììÞò óôá ìÝóá åíçìÝñùóçò» ãéá åîùñáúóìü ôïõ åðÜñáôïõ ó÷åäßïõ Áíáí êáé ãéá áðïêëåéóìïýò ðïõ ïäçãïýí óôçí êáôáóôïëÞ ôçò åëåõèåñßáò ôçò Ýêöñáóçò êáé ôïõ ðëïõñáëéóìïý éäåþí. Áñíïýìáóôå íá ðéóôÝøïõìå üôé Ýëëçíåò äçìïóéïãñÜöïé Þ ðïëéôéêÜ ðñüóùðá èá ìðïñïýóáí íá ãßíïõí üñãáíá ïðïéáóäÞðïôå óêïðéìüôçôáò ðïõ èá ìðïñïýóå óå äéáóôñåâëþóåéò ôùí ãåãïíüôùí, óå áíáëçèåßò åêôéìÞóåéò êáé óå áíáðáñáãùãÞ ôùí öáóéóôïåéäþí åêâéáóìþí-ôåëåóéãñÜöùí ðïõ áêïýïíôáé ôåëåõôáßá ãéá ôï êüóôïò ôùí êõðñßùí áí äå÷èïýí ôçí êáôáóôïëÞ ôùí áíèñùðßíùí äéêáéùìÜôùí, ôçí êáôáóôïëÞ ôçò ðïëéôéêÞò ôïõò êõñéáñ÷ßáò êáé ôçí ðáñáâßáóç ôïõ äéåèíïýò äéêáßïõ. Åßíáé óõìöÝñïí ôüóï áõôþí ðïõ åßíáé õðÝñ ôïõ íáé üóï êáé áõôþí ðïõ åßíáé õðÝñ ôïõ ¼×É ï äçìüóéïò äéÜëïãïò íá äéåîÜãåôáé óôçí âÜóç ïñèïëïãéóôéêþí åðé÷åéñçìÜôùí, óôçí âÜóç ôùí ðñáãìáôéêþí ãåãïíüôùí êáé ü÷é óôçí âÜóç åêâéáóìþí, øåõäþí, äéáóôñåâëþóåùí êáé õðïíïìåõôéêþí ôçò êïéíÞò íïçìïóýíçò áöïñéóìþí. ¼ðùò êÜíáìå êáé óå Üëëåò ðåñéðôþóåéò óôï ðáñåëèüí êáé åðåéäÞ óôçí Êýðñï åîüöèáëìá äéáêõâåýåôáé ç áíèñþðéíç åëåõèåñßá åêáôïíôÜäùí ÷éëéÜäùí åëëçíïêõðñßùí êáé ôïõñêïêõðñßùí, åìåßò óå êÜèå ðåñßðôùóç èá óõíå÷ßóïõìå íá åêöñÜæïõìå ôéò éäÝåò ìáò ÷ùñßò íá ðôïçèïýìå áðü ðñáêôéêÝò êáé ìåèïäåýóåéò ðïõ äåí áñìüæïõí óå äçìïêñáôéêÜ êáé ðïëéôéóìÝíá êáèåóôþôá. Ãéá áîéïëïãéêÜ ïõäÝôåñåò áíáëýóåéò ðïõ âáóßæïíôáé óôçí ðñïãåíÝóôåñç åðáããåëìáôéêÞ ðåßñá, ôçí óõããñáöéêÞ äñáóôçñéüôçôá êáé ôçí áêáäçìáúêÞ éäéüôçôá ôïõ ãñÜöïíôïò ìðïñåßôå íá âñåßôå óôéò ó÷åôéêÝò äçìïóéåýóåéò ôïõ 2004 óôçí çëåêôñïíéêÞ äéåýèõíóç <http://www.ifestos.edu.gr/13.htm> (üðïõ êáé áíáäçìïóéåýïíôáé üëá ôá êåßìåíá). |
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Post by Satyros on Apr 14, 2004 20:17:08 GMT -5
Íá ëïéðüí ðïõ âãÜæïõìå ìéá Üêñç ãéá ôéò áðüøåéò óïõ åðéôÝëïõò ÐñáÝôïñ ôþñá ðïõ áðïöÜóéóåò íá ìéëÞóåéò óôá ãñáéêéêÜ. ¿óôå êáôáóõêïöáíôÞèçêáí üëïé ïé Üîéïé çãÝôåò. Åãþ îÝñù ôé óõìâáßíåé óôá 25 ÷ñüíéá ðïõ æù êáé äåí ãíùñßæù áðü ðñþôï ÷Ýñé ïýôå ðåñß ÂåíéæÝëïõ ïýôå ðåñß ÷ïýíôáò êôëð, êáé ïýôå åóý ãíùñßæåéò ãéá ôïí ÂåíéæÝëï ðñáãìáôéêÜ, åêôüò áí åßóáé 100 ÷ñïíþí ôþñá êáé Ýæçóåò ôçí åðï÷Þ ôïõ. Åßíáé äõíáôüí íá õðÜñ÷åé ôüóï çëßèéïò Üíèñùðïò êáé ìÜëéóôá ¸ëëçíáò ðïõ íá ðéóôåýåé üôé ï ÃéùñãÜêçò åßíáé ðáôñéþôçò; Áêüìá êáé ïé îÝíïé ôïí êïñïéäåýïõí ãéáôß ï ëüãïò ôïõ åßíáé ìçäáìéíüò, Þñåìïò, íçöÜëéïò ëåò êáé äéïéêåß êÜðïéï ìáãáæß ìå øéëéêÜ êáé ü÷é ìßá ÷þñá ìå ôçí éóôïñßá ðïõ Ý÷åé êáé ôçí øõ÷Þ ðïõ Ý÷åé. Ïðüôå ãéá íá õðïóôçñßæåé êÜðïéïò üôé ï ÃéùñãÜêçò åßíáé ðáôñéþôçò, ðñÝðåé íá åßíáé óõíåéäçôüò ðñïäüôçò ôçò ÅëëÜäïò. Êáé ðïéïò ìßëçóå ãéá ÂõæáíôéíÝò áõôïêñáôïñßåò; Êáô áñ÷Üò áðïöÜóéóå, ïé ÂõæáíôéíÝò áõôïêñáôïñßåò åßíáé êáëü ðñÜãìá, Þ üðùò ëåò óôçí áñ÷Þ ôïõ ìçíýìáôüò óïõ, ôá êïñÜêéá ôçò åêêëçóßáò öÜãáíå ôïõò Üîéïõò çãÝôåò; ÁõôÜ ôá äýï äåí ðÜíå ìáæß êáé Ýñ÷åóáé óå áíôßöáóç ìå ôïí åáõôü óïõ. Ï ÃéùñãÜêçò åßíáé çãÝôçò; Áõôü ôï ìðÜóôáñäï ðñÜãìá, áõôü ôï êáêÜó÷çìï mongrel öõëåôéêÜ, ðïëéôéóôéêÜ êáé çèéêÜ, áõôü åßíáé ãéá óÝíá ç ÅëëÜäá; Ãéá íá ìéëÜåé "õðÝñ" ôïõò ï ÃéùñãÜêçò èõóéÜóôçêáí üóïé èõóéÜóôçêáí ãéá ôï ¸èíïò;<br>
ÈÝëåéò ëïéðüí ÂõæáíôéíÞ áõôïêñáôïñßá. Åãþ ìéëÜù ãéá ôï ¸èíïò, ãéáôß ¸èíïò ÅËËÇÍÉÊÏ äçìéïõñãÞèçêå áðü ôçí ÅðáíÜóôáóç ôùí ãêéáïýñçäùí ôï '21 êáé ü÷é áõôïêñáôïñßá êáé äçìéïõñãÞèçêå ìå óõíèÞìáôá ðïõ ëÝãáíå íá ìç ìåßíåé ðëÝïí Ôïýñêïò ó üëïí ôïí êüóìï, êáé ü÷é ìå óêïðü íá æÞóïõìå óå óõìðïëéôåßá Þ óôçí äéáñêÞ áóöõêôéêÞ ðñïóôáóßá ôçò Ôïõñêßáò, ðñïóôáóßá ôïõ åßäïõò ðïõ ðáñÜó÷åé ï íôáâáíôæÞò óôçí ðüñíç ôïõ..
Êáé áöïý èÝëù ¸èíïò Åëëçíéêü, ôï èÝëù éó÷õñü, ü÷é Ýíá êïõñÝëé ôçò ïðïéáäÞðïôå Üëëçò äýíáìçò, Üëëïò ôñüðïò ãéá ÅèíéêÞ áîéïðñÝðåéá äåí õðÜñ÷åé, áëéþò åßìáóôå üëïé Ýíá ìÜôóï óêïõðßäéá ôçò Ìåóïãåßïõ, Ýíá êáñáâÜíé áðü óåñâéôüñïõò êáé Üâïõëïõò íåïñáãéÜäåò. ÁëëÜ ìÜëëïí áõôü åßíáé ðïõ èÝëåéò åóý Ýôóé;;
ÈÝëù ôçí êáôáóôñïöÞ ôçí åëëáäéêÞò êáêïìïéñéÜò êáé êõñßùò óôçí ðïëéôéêÞ, ü÷é ôçí êáôáóôñïöÞ ôçò ÅëëÜäïò. Åßìáóôå 10 åêáôïììýñéá êáé óå üëïí ôïí êüóìï Üëëïé ôüóïé åðé÷åéñçìáôßåò êáé íáõôéëéáêïß ìåãéóôÜíåò êáé üìùò åßìáóôå ôá ôóïõôóÝêéá ôçò Ìåóïãåßïõ óå åðßðåäï Åèíéêü; Ãéáôß; ãéáôß ôá óïóéáëéóôéêïìáñîéóôéêÜ ðáñáìýèéá åäþ êáé 30 ÷ñüíéá Ý÷ïõí äéáöèåßñåé êáé êÜíåé åíôåëþò çëßèéï ôïí óçìåñéíü åëëáäßôç. Ìå ôåñÜóôéï ëüìðõ óôçí ÁìåñéêÞ êáé ôá ëïéðÜ êáé äåí ìðïñïýìå íá ðáôÞóïõìå ðüäé ïýôå óôá Óêüðéá. Áõôü åßíáé ôï áðïôÝëåóìá ôçò íïïôñïðßáò ôïõ äåí äéåêäéêïýìå ôßðïôá. Åäþ ôï ÉóñáÞë åßíáé 2 åêáôïììýñéá êáé åëÝã÷åé ôá åêáôïíôÜäåò åêáôïììýñéá ôùí ÁñÜâùí, ãéáôß ç éäåïëïãßá ôïõò åßíáé áõôÞ ðïõ îÝñåéò.....
¸ôóé öôéÜ÷íïíôáé ôá ¸èíç, ü÷é ìå èëéâåñÝò ðïëéôéêÝò âñùìïðáóïêéêÝò ðüñíåò ôýðïõ ÃéùñãÜêç, ðïõ óßãïõñá äå èÝëïõí Ýèíïò, áëëÜ ìÜëïí êÜôé óáí áìåñéêáíüöùíç ÑùìÝúêç ðëáæ ãéá ôïõò õðåñáôëáíôéêïýò íôáâáíôæÞäåò ôïõ êáé åíôïëïäü÷ïõò ôçò èëéâåñÞò ïéêïãÝíåéÜò ôïõ..
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 15, 2004 7:54:32 GMT -5
Åëëçíéêá áðïöáóéóá íá ãñáøù ãéáôé äåí åðéèõìù ïé ïðïéåò áíôéäéêéåò ðïõ å÷ù ìå áëëïõò Åëëçíåò íá ãéíïíôáé áíôéêåéìåíï åêìåôáëëåõóçò áðï äéáöïñïõò Áíïí êëð.Íïìéæù ðùò óå áõôï èá óõìöùíçóåéò ðùò åéíáé öñïíéìï íá ìçí äéíïõìå ðáôçìá óå ôåôïéá ìðáóôáñäáêéá. Äåí èá óõíå÷éóù áõôçí ôçí áíôéäéêéá ãéáôé íïéùèù áâïëá íá êïíôñáñù Åëëçíåò óå äéåèíç öïñá ïðïéá êé áí åéíáé ç ðïëéôéêç ôïõò ôïðïèåôçóç , êáé ãéáôé íá óõìöùíçóïõìå áðïêëåéåôáé áñá áñãá ç ãñçãïñá ç êïõâåíôá èá åêöõëéóôåé. Èá õðïãñáììéóù êáðïéá ðñáãìáôá. Áêïìá êé áí äå ó'áñåóåé ç éóôïñéá ôïõ åèíéêïõ äé÷áóìïõ å÷åé ãñáöôåß êáé äåí ÷ñåéáæåôáé êáíåéò íá åéíáé 100 åôùí ãéá íá îåñåé ôé åãéíå. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò êáé ôá Ãïõíáñáêéá ôïõ Ëáúêïõ êïììáôïò áðï ôï '12 êáé ìåôá ôï ìïíï ðïõ Ýêáíáí çôáí íá êáôáóõêïöáíôïõí êáé íá åìðïäéæïõí ôï åñãï ôïõ Åèíáñ÷ç Âåíéæåëïõ. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò åðåìåíå íá ðñïåëáóåé óôï Ìïíáóôçñé êáé íá áöçóåé ôç Èåóóáëïíéêç óôá ÷åñéá ôùí Âïõëãáñùí. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò áðåññéøå ôï 1915 ôçí ðñïóöïñá ôùí Âñåôáíùí ãéá ôçí ðáñá÷ùñçóç ôçò Êõðñïõ óôçí Åëëáäá ìå áíôáëëáãìá ôçí åéóïäï ìáò óôïí ðïëåìï óôï ðëåõñï ôçò Áíôáíô,åðåéäç çôáí ãåñìáíïöéëïò(ôï çîåñåò áõôï  .Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò êáé ïé ïðáäïé ôïõ áíôéðáñåèåôáí ôï óõíèçìá ôçò Ìéêñáò ðëçí ôéìéáò Åëëáäïò ôç óôéãìç ðïõ ï Âåíéæåëïò çôáí åôïéìïò íá ðåôõ÷åé ôçí åèíéêç ïëïêëçñùóç êáé ïôé óçìáéíå áõôï ãéá ôçí åðéâéùóç ôïõ Åëëçíéóìïõ (êñéóéìç ìáæá,ðëçèõóìïé êëð). Ìå÷ñé êáé ïé ðëáêåò ìå ôï áíáèåìá åíáíôéïí ôïõ Âåíéæåëïõ áíáêáëõöèçêáí ðñéí êáíá ìçíá. Ïõôå áõôï ìðïñåéò íá ôï áìöéóâçôçóåéò. Ïóï ãéá ôï 114 êáé ôç ÷ïõíôá (ðïõ åðåâëçèç áêñéâùò ãéáôé ïé Áìåñéêáíïé ðñïò ìåãáëç ôïõò åêðëçîç äåí åé÷áí ôïí Ã.Ðáðáíäñåïõ ôïõ ÷åñéïõ ôïõò) õðáñ÷ïõí áõôïðôåò áêïìá. Äåí åðéèõìù ôçí áíáóôçëùóç ôïõ Âõæáíôéïõ. Áõôï ðïõ åðéèõìù åéíáé ìéá éó÷õñç ÅÅ ,ç ïðïéá èá ìáò áðåëåõèåñùóåé áðï ôïí áìåñéêáíïâñåôáíéêï âñá÷íá,ìå ôçí Åëëáäá ìå ôçí éóôïñéá ôç ãëùóóá êáé ôïí ðïëéôéóìï ôçò íá äéáäñáìáôéæåé âáñõ ñïëï óôïõò êïëðïõò ôçò Åíùóçò. Êáé ï÷é,ôï Éóñáçë êáé ïé Åâñáéïé ãåíéêá äåí åéíáé ôï ðñüôõðï ðïõ èåëù íá áêïëïõèçóåé ï Åëëçíéóìïò. |
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Post by Satyros on Apr 15, 2004 9:13:25 GMT -5
Åëëçíéêá áðïöáóéóá íá ãñáøù ãéáôé äåí åðéèõìù ïé ïðïéåò áíôéäéêéåò ðïõ å÷ù ìå áëëïõò Åëëçíåò íá ãéíïíôáé áíôéêåéìåíï åêìåôáëëåõóçò áðï äéáöïñïõò Áíïí êëð.Íïìéæù ðùò óå áõôï èá óõìöùíçóåéò ðùò åéíáé öñïíéìï íá ìçí äéíïõìå ðáôçìá óå ôåôïéá ìðáóôáñäáêéá. Äåí èá óõíå÷éóù áõôçí ôçí áíôéäéêéá ãéáôé íïéùèù áâïëá íá êïíôñáñù Åëëçíåò óå äéåèíç öïñá ïðïéá êé áí åéíáé ç ðïëéôéêç ôïõò ôïðïèåôçóç , êáé ãéáôé íá óõìöùíçóïõìå áðïêëåéåôáé áñá áñãá ç ãñçãïñá ç êïõâåíôá èá åêöõëéóôåé. Èá õðïãñáììéóù êáðïéá ðñáãìáôá. Áêïìá êé áí äå ó'áñåóåé ç éóôïñéá ôïõ åèíéêïõ äé÷áóìïõ å÷åé ãñáöôåß êáé äåí ÷ñåéáæåôáé êáíåéò íá åéíáé 100 åôùí ãéá íá îåñåé ôé åãéíå. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò êáé ôá Ãïõíáñáêéá ôïõ Ëáúêïõ êïììáôïò áðï ôï '12 êáé ìåôá ôï ìïíï ðïõ Ýêáíáí çôáí íá êáôáóõêïöáíôïõí êáé íá åìðïäéæïõí ôï åñãï ôïõ Åèíáñ÷ç Âåíéæåëïõ. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò åðåìåíå íá ðñïåëáóåé óôï Ìïíáóôçñé êáé íá áöçóåé ôç Èåóóáëïíéêç óôá ÷åñéá ôùí Âïõëãáñùí. Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò áðåññéøå ôï 1915 ôçí ðñïóöïñá ôùí Âñåôáíùí ãéá ôçí ðáñá÷ùñçóç ôçò Êõðñïõ óôçí Åëëáäá ìå áíôáëëáãìá ôçí åéóïäï ìáò óôïí ðïëåìï óôï ðëåõñï ôçò Áíôáíô,åðåéäç çôáí ãåñìáíïöéëïò(ôï çîåñåò áõôï .Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò êáé ïé ïðáäïé ôïõ áíôéðáñåèåôáí ôï óõíèçìá ôçò Ìéêñáò ðëçí ôéìéáò Åëëáäïò ôç óôéãìç ðïõ ï Âåíéæåëïò çôáí åôïéìïò íá ðåôõ÷åé ôçí åèíéêç ïëïêëçñùóç êáé ïôé óçìáéíå áõôï ãéá ôçí åðéâéùóç ôïõ Åëëçíéóìïõ (êñéóéìç ìáæá,ðëçèõóìïé êëð). Ìå÷ñé êáé ïé ðëáêåò ìå ôï áíáèåìá åíáíôéïí ôïõ Âåíéæåëïõ áíáêáëõöèçêáí ðñéí êáíá ìçíá. Ïõôå áõôï ìðïñåéò íá ôï áìöéóâçôçóåéò. Ïóï ãéá ôï 114 êáé ôç ÷ïõíôá (ðïõ åðåâëçèç áêñéâùò ãéáôé ïé Áìåñéêáíïé ðñïò ìåãáëç ôïõò åêðëçîç äåí åé÷áí ôïí Ã.Ðáðáíäñåïõ ôïõ ÷åñéïõ ôïõò) õðáñ÷ïõí áõôïðôåò áêïìá. Äåí åðéèõìù ôçí áíáóôçëùóç ôïõ Âõæáíôéïõ. Áõôï ðïõ åðéèõìù åéíáé ìéá éó÷õñç ÅÅ ,ç ïðïéá èá ìáò áðåëåõèåñùóåé áðï ôïí áìåñéêáíïâñåôáíéêï âñá÷íá,ìå ôçí Åëëáäá ìå ôçí éóôïñéá ôç ãëùóóá êáé ôïí ðïëéôéóìï ôçò íá äéáäñáìáôéæåé âáñõ ñïëï óôïõò êïëðïõò ôçò Åíùóçò. Êáé ï÷é,ôï Éóñáçë êáé ïé Åâñáéïé ãåíéêá äåí åéíáé ôï ðñüôõðï ðïõ èåëù íá áêïëïõèçóåé ï Åëëçíéóìïò. ×ì, ôåëéêÜ ôé åßìáé, óöïäñüò íåïíáæß Þ Åâñáéüöéëïò; ÐÜëé áíôéöÜóêåéò åðß áíôéöÜóåùí. ÊáôÜëáâåò ðïëý êáëÜ âÝâáéá ôé åííïïýóá, ü÷é íá áêïëïõèÞóïõìå ôéò ôáêôéêÝò ôïõ ÉóñáÞë, áëëÜ ôï Ýöåñá óáí ðáñÜäåéãìá ìðáò êáé êáôáëÜâåéò ðùò ÐÑÁÃÌÁÔÉÊÁ ëåéôïõñãïýí ôá ðñÜãìáôá óôéò äéåèíåßò ó÷Ýóåéò.. ÅíôÜîåé, óôáìáôþ êáé åãþ, áöïý âÝâáéá ôåëåéþóù áõôü ìïõ ôï ìÞíõìá. ÌðëÝêåóáé ðÜëé óå ðåñéãñáöÝò ãåãïíüôùí ïé ïðïßåò ãéá åìÝíá Ý÷ïõí áðëÜ êÜðïéá ÉÓÔÏÑÉÊÇ ÁÎÉÁ êáé äåí ìðïñþ íá ãíùñßæù ïýôå êáé åóý âÝâáéá, ôé ðáéæüôáí åðáêñéâþò óôá ðáñáóêÞíéá. Ôï ìüíï óßãïõñï åßíáé üôé Þôáí èÝìá åðéëïãÞò óõììÜ÷ùí, èÝìá åðéëïãÞò ðñïóôáôþí êáé ðÜëé, äçëáäÞ ÄÅÍ Þôáí èÝìá ðñïäïóßáò åíüò ìÝñïõò êáèþò ðÜñá ðïëëïß áíåîÜñôçôïé ðáñÜãïíôåò êáèüñéæáí ôá áðïôåëÝóìáôá. ÈÝëïíôáò êáé ìç üìùò ìáóÜò ôçí ßäéá êáñáìÝëá ôùí áñéóôåñþí, ðïõ ðÜíôá êÜíáíå "ôßìéïõò" áãþíåò êáé ôï ðáëÜôé êáé ï ÂáóéëéÜò, ðïõ ôÜ÷á ðïõëÞóáíå ôçí ÅëëÜäá, åíþ áðëÜ ìéëÜìå ãéá óõãêõñßåò êáé áëëçëåðéäñÜóåéò óõììá÷éêþí åíÝñãåéþí. Äõóôõ÷þò ïé áñéóôåñïß ÷ñåéÜæåôáé íá ôñÝöïíôáé áðü ôá ðáñáìýèéá ôÝôïéùí õðïôéèÝìåíùí ôßìéùí áãþíùí, åíþ ïé äåîéïß ÄÅÍ ÔÏ ÊÁÍÏÕÍ ÁÕÔÏ äéüôé ãíùñßæïõí üôé ðñüêåéôáé ãéá éóïññïðßåò äõíÜìåùí êáé äåí áíáæçôïýí ÊÁÐÏÉÏÍ ÍÔÏÐÉÏ ãéá íá êáôçãïñÞóïõí þóôå íá îå÷áóôïýò ïé äéêÝò ôïõò áôéìßåò êáé áíôåèíéêÝò óõìðåñéöïñÝò üðùò êÜíïõí ïé áñéóôåñïß óõíå÷üìåíá... Åëðßæù íá êáôáëáâáßíåéò áõôÜ ðïõ ëÝù. ÓêÝøïõ ãéá ðáñÜäåéãìá ôï åîÞò: ïé ðáëéïß ïðáäïß ôïõ ÐÁÓÏÊ øçößæáí ÁíôñÝá, äéüôé Þôáí ÁÍÔÉÁÌÅÑÉÊÁÍÏÓ êáé èá Ýäéù÷íå ôéò âÜóåéò (åäþ ãåëÜìå üëïé óõíôñïöéêÜ). Ïé ðáëéïß áõôïß ïðáäïß ìáæß ìå ôïõò íÝïõò ôþñá øçößæïõí ÃéùñãÜêç äéüôé åßíáé ÖÉËÏÁÌÅÑÉÊÁÍÏÓ êáé ôá ðÜåé êáëÜ ìå ôïõò íôáâáôæÞäåò ôïõ. Áõôü ôé óïõ ëÝåé ãéá ôçí êáôÜíôéá üëùí áõôþí ôùí øçöïöüñùí êáé ãéá ôçí ðáíôåëÞ áðïõóßá éäåïëïãßáò êáé áîéïðñÝðåéÜò ôïõò ãéá íá ìç ìéëÞóù ãéá ðáôñéùôéóìü ãéáôß ðÝöôåé êÜôù ôïõ ìçäåíüò... Áõôü ðïõ ìå åíäéáöÝñåé ëïéðüí åßíáé ôé ãßíåôáé ôþñá êáé ü÷é ôé ãéíüôáí êÜðïôå. Êáé ìçí óå ìðåñäåýåé ç óçìáßá ðïõ Ý÷ù, ôçí Ýâáëá ãéáôß ìïõ Üñåóå êáé ìïõ öÝñíåé óôï ìõáëü êÜôé áîéïðñåðÝò, êÜôé ðïõ íá óçìáßíåé áëçèéíü êñÜôïò êáé ü÷é óïóéáëçóôñéêÞ áíáñ÷ßá.. . Åßóáé óßãïõñïò; Äéüôé ïé ðïëõöõëåôéêÝò ðïëõèñçóêåõôéêÝò, ðïëõðïëéôéóìéêÝò ïìïóðïíäßåò êáé êïéíüôçôåò óáí áõôÞ ðïõ èá õðåóôÞñéæåò êáé óôçí Êýðñï, èõìßæïõí ôï ðïëõöõëåôéêü ÂõæÜíôéï, ìüíï ðïõ óôçí åðï÷Þ ìáò áíôß ãéá ôç èåïêñáôßá èá Ý÷ïõìå ôçí Áããëïóáîïíïêñáôßá, Ýôóé äåí åßíáé; ÁõôÞ åßíáé ç ðéï óùóôÞ ðñüôáóç ðïõ Ý÷åéò ðåé åäþ ìÝóá. Åëðßæù íá ôï ðéóôåýåéò ðñáãìáôéêÜ áõôü. ÁëëÜ äåí ìðïñþ íá êáôáëÜâù ðùò èá ìðïñïýóå íá öåñèåß öéëïåõñùðáéêÜ Ýíáò Gorgakis ìå Áìåñéêáíßäá ìÜíá êáé áìåñéêÜíéêï äéáâáôÞñéï. Åðßóçò ðùò èá óåâáóôïýíå ïé "óåâáóôïß" ìáò åôáßñïé ìßá ÷þñá üôáí ôï ìüíï ðïõ Ý÷åé íá åðåéäåßîåé åßíáé ðÜìöèçíåò êáëïêáéñéíÝò äéáêïðÝò ãéá ôïõò åôáßñïõò, êáé ðáíçëßèéåò êïêïñïìá÷ßåò ãéá ôç ...öÝôá êáé êÜôé ìáõñéóìÝíá ìÜñìáñá óôï Ëïíäßíï.... Íá óïõ èõìßóù üôé Ýíá áêüìá áðü ôá óõíèÞìáôá ôïõ 21 ðïõ Ýìåéíå ãéá ôéò äéêÝò ìáò ãåíåÝò åêôüò áðü ôï íá ìç ìåßíåé Ôïýñêïò óôïí êüóìï üëïí, Þôáí êáé ôï íá óôçñé÷ôïýìå óôéò äéêÝò ìáò äõíÜìåéò, êáé ü÷é ÐÁËÉ óôïõò áðüëõôá óõìöåñïíôïëüãïõò îÝíïõò |
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Post by Graeme on Apr 15, 2004 10:29:57 GMT -5
Maybe you Greeks need another Ochi day regarding the Turkish occupation of Cyprus. What will happen to the Turks who live in Cyprus?
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 15, 2004 19:08:52 GMT -5
Maybe you Greeks need another Ochi day regarding the Turkish occupation of Cyprus. What will happen to the Turks who live in Cyprus? Which Turks exactly? According to Mehmet Ali Talat, the "prime minister" of occupied Cyprus, there are 103,000 Turkish Cypriots and 115,000 Anatolian settlers in his "state". The Turkish Cypriots are a minority in their own "state" and their prospects are grim. Many emigrate and if there is no solution to the Cyprus problem, most of the remaining ones will go to western Europe and the ones left behind will disappear in an ever increasing mass of settlers. Their only hope is to join the Greek Cypriots in the European Union, where the prosperity and protection of minorities will guarantee their survival as a distinct group. The settlers fate is no concern of mine. |
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Praetor
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Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 16, 2004 15:01:36 GMT -5
This is an article of a man with far more knowledge and experience on Greek diplomatic affairs than mr Ifestos. Professor Ioakeimidis had been from 1978 to 2004 a major consultunt of all Greek goverments on international and european issues.
ÐPOBOËEIÓ
Tï ó÷Ýäéï AíÜí êáé ç Kýðñïò ùò ïìïóðïíäßá
Ð. Ê. ÉÙÁÊÅÉÌÉÄÇÓ H éóôïñéêÞ åõêáéñßá ãéá åðßëõóç ôïõ Êõðñéáêïý ðñïâëÞìáôïò äåí ðñÝðåé íá ÷áèåß. Ïé áíôéäñÜóåéò óôï ó÷Ýäéï ÁíÜí Ý÷ïõí ðïëëÝò êáé åôåñüêëçôåò áéôßåò. ÏñéóìÝíïé äåí èÝëïõí ôï ó÷Ýäéï ãéáôß ðïëý áðëÜ äåí èÝëïõí êáìßá ëýóç Ýîù áðü ôçí åðéâïëÞ ôçò ðëåéïøçößáò óôç ìåéïøçößá. Aëëïé äåí ôï èÝëïõí, ãéáôß åßíáé äÝóìéïé ó÷çìÜôùí ôïõ ðáñåëèüíôïò ëçóìïíþíôáò üôé ç åëëçíïêõðñéáêÞ ðëåõñÜ åßíáé áõôÞ ðïõ çôôÞèçêå ôï 1974 êáé üôé áõôÞ ç ðëåõñÜ æçôïýóå ôç ëýóç. ÕðÜñ÷åé üìùò êáé ìéá ìåñßäá ðïõ áíôéôßèåôáé óôï ó÷Ýäéï ãéáôß äåí ìðïñåß íá êáôáíïÞóåé ôç ëïãéêÞ åíüò ïìïóðïíäéáêïý óõóôÞìáôïò, üðùò áõôü ðïõ åãêáèéäñýåé ôï ó÷Ýäéï ÁíÜí. ¼ðùò åßíáé ãíùóôü, áðü ôï 1977 êáé ìåôÜ (óõìöùíßá Ìáêáñßïõ - ÍôåíêôÜò) åß÷å ãßíåé áðïäåêôü üôé ïðïéáäÞðïôå ëýóç èá ïäçãïýóå óå «äéæùíéêü, äéêïéíïôéêü, ïìïóðïíäéáêü êñÜôïò». Âåâáßùò ìéá ïìïóðïíäßá ðïõ áðïôåëåßôáé ìüíïí áðü äýï óõíéóôþíôá ìÝñç äåí åßíáé åýêïëá âéþóéìç. Ôï áðïäåéêíýåé ç éóôïñéêÞ åìðåéñßá. Êáèßóôáôáé üìùò âéþóéìç ìÝóá óôï ðëáßóéï ôçò ÅõñùðáúêÞò ¸íùóçò. H ¸íùóç åîáóöáëßæåé ôï ðëÝãìá èåóìéêþí éóïññïðéþí (checks and balances), áíáãêáßï óå Ýíá ïìïóðïíäéáêü óýóôçìá. ¼èåí ç óçìáóßá Ýíôáîçò ôçò Êýðñïõ óôçí ¸íùóç.
Áõôü üìùò ðïõ ðñÝðåé íá êáôáíïçèåß åßíáé üôé ç ïìïóðïíäßá äåí óôçñßæåôáé óôçí áñ÷Þ ôçò ðëåéïøçößáò/ìåéïøçößáò êáôÜ ôçí Ýííïéá ðïõ óôçñßæåôáé Ýíá åíéáßï (unitary) êñÜôïò. H ïìïóðïíäßá áíáãíùñßæåé ðïëéôéêÞ éóüôçôá óôá «óõíéóôþíôá ìÝñç» áíåîÜñôçôá áðü ôïí ðëçèõóìü ôïõò. Áõôü óõìâáßíåé óå üëåò ôéò ïìïóðïíäßåò. Áõôü óõìâáßíåé óôçí ÅõñùðáúêÞ ¸íùóç, ìßá ïéïíåß ïìïóðïíäßá. H ÅëëÜäá ôùí 11 åêáô. êáôïßêùí åßíáé éóüôéìç ìå ôç Ãåñìáíßá ôùí 82 åêáô. Êáé âáóéêÞ èÝóç ôçò ÅëëÜäáò êáé ôçò Êýðñïõ óôçí ¸íùóç åßíáé ç ðëÞñçò éóïôéìßá üëùí ôùí êñáôþí, áíåîÜñôçôá áðü ôï ìÝãåèüò ôïõò. H ïìïóðïíäßá áðáéôåß åðéðëÝïí Ýíá ó÷åôéêÜ ðåñßðëïêï óýóôçìá ëÞøçò áðïöÜóåùí ìå ðïëëÜ óôÜäéá äéáâïýëåõóçò, ðñïêåéìÝíïõ íá åðéôåõ÷èïýí ïé áíáãêáßåò óõíáéíÝóåéò. Ôï ó÷Ýäéï ÁíÜí åãêáèéäñýåé Ýíá ïìïóðïíäéáêü óýóôçìá ðïõ ìÝóá óôï èåóìéêü ðëáßóéï ôçò ¸íùóçò êáèßóôáôáé ëåéôïõñãéêü. Ãé' áõôü êáé èá ðñÝðåé íá ãßíåé áðïäåêôü. H «õðüèåóç Ìáêåäïíßá/Óêüðéá» èá ðñÝðåé íá ìáò Ý÷åé äéäÜîåé êÜôé...
Ï Ð.K. Éùáêåéìßäçò åßíáé êáèçãçôÞò ôïõ ÔìÞìáôïò ÐïëéôéêÞò ÅðéóôÞìçò êáé Äçìüóéáò Äéïßêçóçò ôïõ Ðáíåðéóôçìßïõ Áèçíþí.
ÔÁ ÍÅÁ , 16-04-2004 , Óåë.: N06
Êùäéêüò Üñèñïõ: A17915N063
ID:411689
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 16, 2004 15:02:00 GMT -5
“The time of secret army concentrations and surprise land offensives has passed. Both countries have access to satellite images and sophisticated electronic equipment not to mention traditional ways of espionage and recce. …deploy rapidly and halt an army's advance in no time. The means of defence exist. So do the excuses for not showing determination.”<br>
We are running in circles. I am deeply surprised that you believe that Cyprus has such a defensive ability. What jet planes for crying out loud? The ones that Cyprus doesn’t have? Or the Greek ones that their only choice (since we don’t have a carrier) for refueling is to land on Pafos and be a sitting duck for Turkish F16s? Without a decent air cover in our era no war can be won.
“The Annan plan does not cancel the Attila operation. ...Open wounds in the Aegean? What exactly do you mean? I thought the plan would give a major boost to Greek-Turkish co-operation according to your way of thinking. “<br>
Our open wound in Aegean is mostly our “inverted cone” air space, continental shelf and of course the territorial sea issue. We claim 6 n.miles of sea borders and 10 miles of air space. This has complications of course, that’s why the infamous Turkish violations of our air space have various ranks. 1. Violation of Greek FIR.(beyond 10 miles) The FIR is consisted of both Greek (0-10 miles)and international air space. Turkish fighter planes can use the international air space of the Greek FIR without Greece being able to block them. They however have to present a flight pattern ,which they usually don’t. This is a violation but not of our national air space. 2. Violation of the Greek airspace between 6-10 miles. This piece of our air is ambiguous so we have a hybrid situation here .We keep that more as a negotiation wild card. 3. Pure violation of Greek air-space 0-6 miles.. It is exactly what it says. You will probably jump in the conclusion that Greek politicians are scared of Turkey and that’s why they don’t expand our territorial sea to 12miles of range. Well International Law of the Sea leaves an open window concerning the status of international straits and enclosed seas. Aegean is such a place which means the 12miles Greek Aegean is not yet as solid as we wish and thus we need to be very very cautious and use all our diplomatic strength on that one since limitations on our sovereignty might be applied. If we will go in Hague with Turkey we will of course use various arguments to strengthen our side. We have the advantage but we have to translate it into gaining. If you have any doubt check the Convention on The Law Of The Sea (Montego Bay treaty,1982) and especially articles 2-16,34-45,123 and see for yourself that the 12 miles zone shouldn’t be taken for granted in certain parts of the Aegean.. Now you are informed.When the issue comes to Hague don’t start again the miserable attacks against the “defeatism” of our politicians that gave away our precious rights. Negotiation is a necessity.
“No, not in its current form ...all my eggs in the EU basket.”<br>
It’s current form is a product of a long evolution in even harder times when Europe was a true dwarf. EU right now is a confederation with an open integration process towards federalism. Nothing can stop that, neither USA nor UK. ONE/Euro is a federal element so is Schengen agreement. And when you finally read my post on Concentric circles you will learn that the integration process doesn’t require all the member states to proceed. UK is constantly left behind in my great relief.
“The fact remains, the Greek Cypriots will …tie our hands behind our backs and let them punch us.”<br>
Actually Cypriots will even get aid (which eventually stands for compensation) for various donors. Expect a few billion of Euros for that matter.
“Suicide bombers and Intifada? No, we are not that desperate, yet. Some backbone would not go amiss though. Many extremely successful countries have it you know.”<br>
Helsinki summit is what I call a Backbone, not Tyhodioktismos.
“OK, I will suspend my political rights until I study the same subjects as you, taught by the same people who taught you. I pressume Yorgakis studied there too.
I am afraid I would miserably have failed my exams. So would those who revolted against the Ottomans 183 years ago... rushed to the ...market”.
Once again you obviously ignore the basics on balance of power at least as Turkish generals see it. The fact that Greece hadn’t purchased any arms for years and the growing Greek disadvantage encouraged them to make a power show off. After we balanced things up it came the time for Yiorgakis to promote its plan on cooling things a bit. Both Greece and Turkey have greatly lowered their defense budget Who asked you to suspend your political rights or pick up studies? Don’t just let your emotions aside ,you could drop your irony as well.
But of course ,the good old malevolent argument of Greek Revolution, glory to the ones who dared.Let me remind you that there were several failed Revolts before the successful one. The thing (among others) it teaches us is that each bold move needs the correct timing.
Imia ,one hell of a poppycock for Turkey. Do you know what a boomerang is?
“Yeah, one of my childhood friends lives there, he is ...shit from a Turk, not a Greek”<br>
Now you sound like the father of a son that got involved into a car crash that killed another person and is being accused of that. You know that it wasn’t your son’s fault but you attack your relative (that’s me) who points the obvious ,that it doesn’t matter what you or the relative think, it matters what the judge thinks about the issue. Cypriots failed to prove to judge what is the big difference between Epoikoi of north and metanastes in the south in terms of altering the original numbers. I know it is not fair ,but it doesn’t matter what we believe,but what we do. How difficult is that to understand?
“Yeah, Yorgakis has solved all our problems. Rauf Denktash does not like the fact he is pushed aside and can not see beyond his fat fascist nose. If the plan was against the wishes of the Turkish military they would have blocked it”<br>
Denktash doesn’t like the fact that his vision of a Confed Cyprus with no real Central Authorities is endangered. That’s the work of his life, remember.
“So, all these years Greece was blocking agreements with Turkey, we were isolated and suffered. Mmm... I didn't see any suffering.”<br>
Then I am afraid you were blind. You have no idea of the mess and isolation all our blocking efforts towards turkey have caused. Let me remind you the 14 countries trying to fund Turkey on one side and us vetoing on the other.(and the interesting way our EU comrades were inventing to derive our veto) The two years that led into the Helsinki frame were a great relief, diplomatic and financial.
“What I see is people fighting for justice, while those responsible for their misfortune, namely Turkey, Greece and Britain are trying to shove down their throat an agreement they do not want.
I see Greeks who refuse to sign away lands that have been Greek for millenia, like Karpasia. Who refuse to exchange ancient Salamis for some Maronite villages. I see refugees rejecting this deal by 81%. A deal that is supposed to benefit them mostly. Are they mad? They are mad Greeks, thank God, and luckily they have not studied international relations.”<br>
Justice? One of the first things that someone learns in Law school is that Justice is one thing and Law another, usually very different thing. For Cyprus Law is an unfortunate combination of International Law and Law of the mightiest. And excuse me but Cypriots are no pure of guilt for the mess they are into the last 30-40 years. If they had studied international relations they would have understood that No is the quickest way to officially chop the island in two pieces, without any territorial gain. If they had studied International Relations they would have known by now that with farts (UN resolutions) we can’t paint the eggs (solve the issue).Why can’t you understand that our starting point is not 1960 any more but,1974? We got ourselves a paper that accepted our claims since 1977 about a federal Cyprus and now we are about to turn the table up side down. I don’t blame the Cypriots that will vote NO because they don’t want to live together with Turks, I blame the ones that expect that soon the Attila aftermath will be erased and odds are gonna be on our sides. Like that ignorant hawk . Ifaistos, the Greek Richard Pearl. (Judging by his works that I’ve read he is really poor on historical knowledge check his opinion on wars between modern democracies and you will understand what I mean)
The biggest error of Cypriot leadership is that they had never looked in the mirror and decided what they wanted for the future. A bizonial federation or a divided island.(Of course utopists like Ifestos think that a Greek-only governed Cyprus is still possible, alas) . When you focus on your goal it is easy to form your strategy. I was left all these years with the impression that Cypriots after 1977 are focused on the federal plan. After Tassos speech last week I was astonished to realise that the whole strategy that brought the federal solution very close, was something mr Papadopoulos would never accept. If Cypriots want to live in a divided island , fine,(I may disagree but it is their life), but they should make a deal. Allow the occupied area to be accepted as an official state and in exchange get more territory or whatever they wish. By voting NO they are about to divide the island with zero gain.
And this is the final reply on this debate from my side, Artemidoros.
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 16, 2004 18:53:04 GMT -5
This will also be my last post on this issue, at least till the 24th of April. I wil try to be brief.
There is an airbase in Paphos, with hardened aircraft shelters, underground stores, anti-aircraft missiles and artillery. Bombing it without first neutrilizing the AAA is extremely difficult. Greek F-16s have proven they can land there in times of crisis without the Turks knowing. Combined with S-300 long range missiles and medium range such as BUK M1 as well as short range ones can give a mega headache to any attacking force. Most of the stuff I am talking about exists in the Greek and Cypriot arsenal already.
Lets just be clear about something. I am talking about defending free Cyprus if the need arises. Not attacking the Turks. This is a huge subject, believe me I have done my homework and can debate it. The points though I was trying to make are
1) Even if Turkrey has militarily the upper hand in Cyprus there are ways of achieving military balance.
2)If the Annan plan is accepted Turkey will still have the upper hand, while Greece and Cyprus will have no hand, at all.
Yet another huge subject that warrants a separate debate.
You are, shall I say, dogmatic about the whole thing. Nothing is settled. There are serious efforts to undermine the EU. For example, I think sandwich mentioned it somewhere, the American efforts to put Turkey in the EU are such an attempt. The Annan plan itself is poison for the soul of the EU. I have said it before, I am not anti-EU, I just like to have alternatives if the whole thing fails to deliver.
Promises... promises. The bribe us with the carrot and threaten us with the stick. I find it offensive actually. Since you claim to be more pragmatic, take a look at the former Yugoslavia. Go ask AWAR.
I have yet to see a result of this magnificent victory that I like.
There was no organised Panhellenic revolt that did not count on foreign backing. The first one of its kind succeeded and the foreign backing came as well. Of course the timing is important. The time for Cyprus to say no is now. After the 24th it will be too late.
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 16, 2004 18:54:17 GMT -5
How difficult is it to understand that any foreign politician, who claims to not understand the difference between settlers and immigrants is acting stupid and should be told to go make love to himself?
I agree, he considers the problem solved.
Indeed I have no idea.
First of all please do not present a federal Cyprus as something the Greek Cypriots ever wished or asked for. It was a Turkish demand that the Cypriots very reluctantly accepted and as usual got nothing in return. Second this type of "federation" is a world first. This "internal nationality" is nothing but an unprecedented and weird form of apartheid. The Cypriots accepting it, is to me unthinkable. When an American from California moves to Oregon he has exactly the same rights as the people of Oregon. It is the same in any federal country. In Cyprus they would take their "internal nationality" with them and pass it on to their children. It will be based only on which national group they come from. If this is not racist, unethical and contrary to EU law, what is it? Also, the inequalities this plan introduces between neighbours are so extreme it is bound to create friction in the future and make Cyprus explode. By law a Turkish Cypriot's vote (or an alien Anatolian thief's) will carry 4 times the weight of his Greek next door neighbour, solely because he is Greek. By law a Turk will have much better chances of getting a job in the public sector since 1/3 of job's will be reserved for 1/5 of the population. 50% of jobs in the federal police will be reserved for the Turks.
It is this particular "federation" the Cypriots do not accept not federation in general. Nor is it true they do not want to live with the Turkish Cypriots. But hey, in Cyprus not in Annanistan.
I am well aware international law and justice do not always coincide. In the case of Cyprus they do though. It is only law of the mightiest opposing them. That is the whole point. Throughout our history we define ourselves as defying that law. Since at least the Persian wars. If it is a myth I want to live up to that myth. If we crash trying, hell it will be worth it. Otherwise why not all become Turks? What would the big deal be about being Greek?
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Apr 16, 2004 21:24:24 GMT -5
The Annan plan is not only grossly unfair to Cypriots, Greek and Turkish, (as opposed to imported Turks), it's a plan devised and pushed by those who want to see the EU weakened, with a US stooge at both ends, the UK and Turkey. Britain just wants to prevent further integration that will leave it behind if it can't get its act together to become a real European. The US is ... the US. The Germans have a lot of investment in Turkey, lots of Turkish-origin citizens and ambitions that date back to the Berlin-Baghdad railway. The expansion commissioner is German. He has, in public, been pushing hard for the plan. However, the reality is rather different. www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1184221,00.html The EU has already worked out an alternative plan for when this one fails - as it will, thank God.When was this alternative plan worked out? Presumably at the recent Council of Ministers meeting in March. Now, Praetor, wouldn't you rather see the EU present Turkey with it's own plan, not an Annan/US one? Don't you think a plan in which France, no champion of Turkish accession, customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FRANCE_EU_TURKEY?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT has had a major hand will in fact be more favourable to the Cypriots? Don't you think that the fact that the real Turkish Cypriots actually hate the presence of the imported Turks will weaken Turkey's negotiating position? What's Turkey going to do when they start demonstrating in favour of this alternative EU proposal? Shoot them in the street? Greece has had to play the akward bugger over Turkey for quite a while in EU councils. The Germans grumble about it. The Brits sneer. But that doesn't mean that everybody is so displeased that the Greeks do it. This is a small fault line in the Franco-German axis, echoing geostrategic/economic realities going back to the beginning of the 20th Century, but it can and will be dealt with. New members will of course have their own agendas. I doubt they'll be pleased to think that their economies will have to compete with Turkey's within the EU. It's too much on the same level as theirs. Time is not on Turkey's side, and in any case the EU has been boxing clever, and has not given firm agreements to the proposed derogations to EU law on freedom of settlement. So I think we can expect a better solution based on Turkey's appreciation of its weakened position. Why else is Verheugen expecting to face so much Turkish fury when the Annan plan goes down the tubes where it belongs? (I hope I haven't covered the same ground as Artemidoros' political scientist - wish I could read Greek) |
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.Ï Êùíóôáíôéíïò êáé ïé ïðáäïé ôïõ áíôéðáñåèåôáí ôï óõíèçìá ôçò Ìéêñáò ðëçí ôéìéáò Åëëáäïò ôç óôéãìç ðïõ ï Âåíéæåëïò çôáí åôïéìïò íá ðåôõ÷åé ôçí åèíéêç ïëïêëçñùóç êáé ïôé óçìáéíå áõôï ãéá ôçí åðéâéùóç ôïõ Åëëçíéóìïõ (êñéóéìç ìáæá,ðëçèõóìïé êëð). Ìå÷ñé êáé ïé ðëáêåò ìå ôï áíáèåìá åíáíôéïí ôïõ Âåíéæåëïõ áíáêáëõöèçêáí ðñéí êáíá ìçíá. Ïõôå áõôï ìðïñåéò íá ôï áìöéóâçôçóåéò. Ïóï ãéá ôï 114 êáé ôç ÷ïõíôá (ðïõ åðåâëçèç áêñéâùò ãéáôé ïé Áìåñéêáíïé ðñïò ìåãáëç ôïõò åêðëçîç äåí åé÷áí ôïí Ã.Ðáðáíäñåïõ ôïõ ÷åñéïõ ôïõò) õðáñ÷ïõí áõôïðôåò áêïìá.
