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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 4, 2004 18:47:11 GMT -5
We exist. Only because from time to time we say NO. Because from time to time we go mad. Shame we have such timid and "wise" politicians. Always ready to follow "friendly" advice. Ready to offer "soil and water", ready to display their soiled and wet underpants, because they consider it the least worse option. We don' t deserve such leaders. According to the latest polls, some 85% of Greek Cypriots are not willing to countersign the certificate that will legitimize the euthanasia of Cypriot Hellenism. They say NO to their island becoming a vassal state of Turkey. I paste the letter of a Greek Cypriot below as a reminder to the Greeks of this forum that being Greek is not just a matter of birth, descent or language. "Ãéáôß ëÝù OXI óôïí åêâéáóìü ôïõ äçìïøçößóìáôïò <br> AãáðçôÞ Óýíôáîç, O åëëçíéóìüò ôçò Kýðñïõ ôßèåôáé ôéò åðüìåíåò ìÝñåò åíþðéïí åíüò åêâéáóôéêïý äÞèåí äéëÞììáôïò. Ná áðïäå÷èåß Þ íá áðïññßøåé ôï ëåãüìåíï ó÷Ýäéï AíÜí. Ùò Eëëçíáò Kýðñéïò èá Þèåëá íá îåêáèáñßóù ôç èÝóç ìïõ. Eßíáé óßãïõñï üôé ç áíèñùðüôçôá äåí èá áðáëëáãåß ðïôÝ áðü ôïõò äõíáôïýò, áëëÜ åßíáé êáé åîßóïõ âÝâáéï üôé äåí èá åßíáé ðÜíôá ïé ßäéïé. Ãé' áõôü, êáé ôçí éóôïñßá äåí ôç âëÝðù áðëÜ ìÝóá áðü ôï âéïëïãéêü ìïõ óáñêßïí. Tåëåõôáßåò åõêáéñßåò äåí õðÜñ÷ïõí ðïôÝ, õðÜñ÷åé ìüíï ðáñáßôçóç êáé ðáñÜäïóç. Äåí êÜíù ôç Äéêáéïóýíç ãáñãÜñá êáé áðå÷èÜíïìáé ôüóï ôç óôõãíüôçôá ôùí AìåñéêÜíùí üóï êáé ôçí õðïêñéóßá ôùí EããëÝæùí ðïõ ðëáóÜñïõí üëïé ôïõò ôç ëýóç ùò ðñüôáóç ôïõ (÷åéñáãùãïýìåíïõ ðëÝïí) ïñãáíéóìïý HíùìÝíùí Eèíþí. Äåí èÝëù íá ìéëþ áðü åäþ êáé ðÝñá óôïõò ìáèçôÝò ìïõ êáé âáèéÜ ìÝóá ìïõ íá íéþèù êáñáãêéüæçò... EðåéäÞ ìå áðïãïçôåýåé óôï Ýðáêñï áðü ôç ìéá ç ìéêñüôçôá êáé ç õðïôáãÞ ôçò Eõñþðçò êáé áðü ôçí Üëëç ç äéáñêÞò õðï÷ùñçôéêüôçôÜ ìáò êáé åðåéäÞ åßìáé óßãïõñïò üôé êáíÝíáò äåí åíäéáöÝñåôáé ðñáãìáôéêÜ ãéá ôïí ôüðï ìïõ, áëëÜ üëá ãßíïíôáé ãéá ôá ìÜôéá ôçò íýöçò Tïõñêßáò, þóôå íá ðÜñåé ôçí ðïëõðüèçôç çìåñïìçíßá åíôáîéáêþí äéáðñáãìáôåýóåùí, äåí èÝëù íá ãßíù ôï äåêáíßêé ôùí Tïýñêùí ïýôå íá óêýøù ôï óâÝñêï ìïõ ãéá íá ðáôÞóïõí åðß ðôùìÜôùí (ãéáôß ôï áðïöÜóéóå ìå ôï Ýôóé èÝëù ï õðåñáôëáíôéêüò ôñïìïêñÜôçò ðïõ ëÝãåôáé HÐA) êáé ëÝù OXI. Eßíáé áóýóôïëï øÝìá üôé ôï Êõðñéáêü ôï äçìéïýñãçóå ç äé÷üíïéá ôùí äýï êïéíïôÞôùí. H áëÞèåéá åßíáé üôé ôï êáôáóêåýáóå ç äïëéüôçôá ôùí ¢ããëùí, ç áñðáêôéêüôçôá ôùí Tïýñêùí êáé ç áíéêáíüôçôá êáé áóõíåííïçóßá ôùí åëëáäéêþí ìå ôéò êõðñéáêÝò êõâåñíÞóåéò. Óå ðïéïõò êáé ãéáôß ìáò æçôÜíå ôþñá íá äþóïõìå Üöåóç áìáñôéþí; Añíïýìáé. EðåéäÞ äåí èÝëù íá õðïâéâáóôþ óå äåýôåñçò êáôçãïñßáò ðïëßôç êáé íá äéáãñÜøù ôç ìíÞìç ìïõ êáé åðåéäÞ äåí îå÷íþ üôé ôï 1974 ïé Tïýñêïé ìå ôçí åéóâïëÞ, Ý÷ïíôáò ôçí áíï÷Þ ôùí HÐA êáé ôçò M. Bñåôáíßáò, Ýóöáîáí, âßáóáí êáé ëåçëÜôçóáí Ýíá ïëïæþíôáíï êïììÜôé ôïõ åëëçíéóìïý êáé ôþñá áóåëãïýí îáíáæçôþíôáò ôç óõíáßíåóÞ ìïõ êáé ôç ëåçëáóßá ôçò øõ÷Þò ìïõ, ëÝù OXI. Eîáñ÷Þò ðßóôåõá üôé Þôáí ìåãÜëï ëÜèïò ç áðïäï÷Þ ôïõ îåíüöåñôïõ ó÷åäßïõ AíÜí ùò âÜóçò ãéá äéáðñáãìáôåýóåéò, ãéáôß ëåéôïõñãåß óôç ëïãéêÞ ôçò åèíïôéêÞò êáèáñüôçôáò, ôçò áðïäï÷Þò ôùí ôåôåëåóìÝíùí ôçò åéóâïëÞò êáé ôïõ äéá÷ùñéóìïý êáé Üñá, Ýôóé êé áëëéþò, åßíáé õðïêñéóßá ç üðïéá äéêáéïëüãçóÞ ôïõ åðé÷åéñåßôáé óôï üíïìá ìéáò «åíùìÝíçò» Kýðñïõ. EðåéäÞ ëïéðüí Ý÷ù ìÜèåé íá áðïäßäù ôçí ðñáãìáôéêÞ óçìáóßá óôéò ëÝîåéò êáé åðåéäÞ îÝñù üôé ðßóù áðü ôéò ãñáöåéïêñáôéêÝò öáíöÜñåò ðåñß åðáíåíùìÝíçò Kýðñïõ ðñïùèåßôáé ìå ôçí õðïãñáöÞ ìïõ ìéá de jure äé÷ïôüìçóç ìå åõñùáôëáíôéêÝò äïóïëçøßåò, êáé êõñéüôáôá ï Ýëåã÷ïò áðü ôçí Tïõñêßá ïëüêëçñçò ôçò ìåãáëïíÞóïõ, ëÝù OXI. H åêôñùìáôéêÞ ëýóç ðïõ ìáò åðéâÜëëåôáé äåí êáôï÷õñþíåé ïýôå ôéò âáóéêÝò áíèñþðéíåò åëåõèåñßåò ôçò åãêáôÜóôáóçò êáé íïìÞò ðåñéïõóßáò, ïýôå êáé ôùí ðïëéôéêþí äéêáéùìÜôùí. Äåí óÝâåôáé ôçí áñ÷Þ ôçò ëáúêÞò ðëåéïøçößáò óå ïìïóðïíäéáêü åðßðåäï, ïýôå ôçí áñ÷Þ ôïõ ÷ùñéóìïý ôùí åîïõóéþí, ïýôå ôçí áñ÷Þ ôçò åèíéêÞò êõñéáñ÷ßáò. Ðïéïò èá áðïöáóßæåé êáé ðïéïò èá êõâåñíÜ; Ãéáôß ìå ôç èåôéêÞ ìïõ øÞöï óå áõôü ôï áíéóôüñçôï êáé åãêëçìáôéêü êáôáóêåýáóìá, íá âïçèÞóù óôï íá áêõñþíåôáé ç øÞöïò ôçò EëëÜäáò óôçí Eõñþðç, üôáí ìðïñþ ìåôÜ ôçí ðñþôç MáÀïõ, ìå ôçí ðëÞñç Ýíôáîç, íá Ý÷ù äýï åëëçíéêÝò øÞöïõò óôçí ¸íùóç; Ãéáôß íá ìçí êáôáíïÞóïõìå üôé ôïðïèåôïýìáóôå åíþðéïí åíüò øåõôïäéëÞììáôïò, åíþ ôüóï ôï ðñáãìáôéêü äßëçììá üóï êáé ôç äéáêáÞ åðéèõìßá ãéá Ýíôáîç ôá Ý÷ïõí ïé Tïýñêïé; EðåéäÞ, åðïìÝíùò, ç óðïõäÞ ôùí éó÷õñþí íá õðïêýøïõìå Ý÷åé áðïêëåéóôéêü óôü÷ï ôçí áêýñùóç ôùí ðëåïíåêôçìÜôùí ôçò Ýíôáîçò êáé åðåéäÞ ç ðñïôåéíüìåíç ëýóç äåí åßíáé ôï áðïôÝëåóìá äéáðñáãìÜôåõóçò áëëÜ áíôßèåôá ôï ðñïúüí åêâéáóìïý, äåí áðïäÝ÷ïìáé üôé åîáãíßæåé ôïõò Kõðñßïõò óôçí êïëõìðÞèñá ôïõ ÓéëùÜì, áëëÜ áíôßèåôá ìáò âõèßæåé üëïõò óôá ìáýñá íåñÜ ôçò Óôýãáò, êáé ãé' áõôü ëÝù OXI. Ðñïóäïêþ ôçí åðéóôñïöÞ ðïëý ðåñéóóïôÝñùí ðñïóöýãùí óôá óðßôéá êáé óôéò ðåñéïõóßåò ôïõò êáé äåí èÝëù ïýôå ôç íïìéìïðïßçóç ôùí åðïßêùí, ïýôå ôç óõíÝ÷éóç ôïõ åðïéêéóìïý, ïýôå ðïíçñÝò åããõÞóåéò êáé óôñáôïýò. ÈÝëù íá ìåßíù ¸ëëçíáò óôç íüìéìá êáôÜ 82% åëëçíéêÞ áíáãíùñéóìÝíç ìïõ ðáôñßäá êáé äåí èÝëù ôçí êáôáóêåõÞ êáíåíüò öñáãêïëåâáíôßíéêïõ ìåôáðñáôéêïý êñÜôïõò. Aíáãíùñßæù êáé ôï ßäéï áíôßóôïé÷ï äéêáßùìá óôïõò õðüëïéðïõò áëëïåèíåßò óõìðáôñéþôåò ìïõ. ¹äç, ç áðïäï÷Þ ôçò ïìïóðïíäßáò åßíáé ãéá ìáò ìåãÜëç õðï÷þñçóç. EðåéäÞ åîïñãßæïìáé áðü ôï ãåãïíüò üôé áãíïÞèçêáí ðáíôåëþò ïé åõáéóèçóßåò ôùí EëëÞíùí ôçò Kýðñïõ, åíþ áðü ôçí Üëëç ïé êïõâáëçôïß ôçò Tïõñêßáò óôá êáôå÷üìåíá êáðåëþíïõí êáé áëëïéþíïõí ôçí ðñáãìáôéêÞ èÝëçóç ôùí Tïõñêïêõðñßùí óõìðïëéôþí ìïõ, ëÝù OXI êáé öùíÜæù ìå üëç ôç äýíáìç ôçò øõ÷Þò ìïõ äéêáéïóýíçí ìÜèåôå ïé åíïéêïýíôåò åðß ôçò ãçò... Èåùñþ öïâåñü Ýãêëçìá åê ìÝñïõò ìïõ íá êáôáëýóù ìå ôçí øÞöï ìïõ ôçí KõðñéáêÞ Äçìïêñáôßá êáé íá ôçí áíôéêáôáóôÞóù ìå Ýíáí áíåëåýèåñï, ôåñáôþäç êáé äýóêáìðôï ãñáöåéïêñáôéêü ìç÷áíéóìü, ï ïðïßïò åí ôç ãåíÝóåé ôïõ èá õðïäáõëßæåé ôéò óõãêñïýóåéò ìåôáîý ôùí ðïëéôþí ôïõ. EðåéäÞ öïâÜìáé üôé ôåëéêÜ óôï âÜèïò ôïõ ÷ñüíïõ èá îåñéæùèåß ï åëëçíéóìüò áðü ìéá ðáíÜñ÷áéá êïéôßäá ôïõ êáé üôé èá ïäçãçèåß óå ìéá ïéêïíïìéêÞ Üâõóóï êáé åðåéäÞ äåí èÝëù íá êáôáóêåõáóôåß ïðïéïäÞðïôå Ýèíïò Kõðñßùí, ðéóôåýù üôé ìå ôï OXI ìïõ èá äéáöõëÜîù êáëýôåñá ôá óõìöÝñïíôÜ ìáò óôçí Kýðñï. ËÝù OXI ãéáôß äåí èÝëù íá öôýóù óôïõò ôÜöïõò ôïõ Óïëùìïý êáé ôïõ IóáÜê. EðåéäÞ åßíáé ç åëÜ÷éóôç êáé ôåëåõôáßá åõêáéñßá ðïõ Ý÷ù ãéá íá ôïõò ðù åõ÷áñéóôþ êáé óõããíþìç ìáæß... KÙÓTAÓ KÙNÓTANTINOY, KáèçãçôÞò óôï Ðåéñáìáôéêü Eíéáßï Ëýêåéï Hñáêëåßïõ HñÜêëåéï - KñÞôç" www.phileleftheros.com/main/main.asp?gid=395&id=243685
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Post by Necronomicom on Apr 4, 2004 19:00:16 GMT -5
"Ãéáôß ëÝù OXI óôïí åêâéáóìü ôïõ äçìïøçößóìáôïò <br> AãáðçôÞ Óýíôáîç, O åëëçíéóìüò ôçò Kýðñïõ ôßèåôáé ôéò åðüìåíåò ìÝñåò åíþðéïí åíüò åêâéáóôéêïý äÞèåí äéëÞììáôïò. Ná áðïäå÷èåß Þ íá áðïññßøåé ôï ëåãüìåíï ó÷Ýäéï AíÜí. Ùò Eëëçíáò Kýðñéïò èá Þèåëá íá îåêáèáñßóù ôç èÝóç ìïõ. Eßíáé óßãïõñï üôé ç áíèñùðüôçôá äåí èá áðáëëáãåß ðïôÝ áðü ôïõò äõíáôïýò, áëëÜ åßíáé êáé åîßóïõ âÝâáéï üôé äåí èá åßíáé ðÜíôá ïé ßäéïé. Ãé' áõôü, êáé ôçí éóôïñßá äåí ôç âëÝðù áðëÜ ìÝóá áðü ôï âéïëïãéêü ìïõ óáñêßïí. Tåëåõôáßåò åõêáéñßåò äåí õðÜñ÷ïõí ðïôÝ, õðÜñ÷åé ìüíï ðáñáßôçóç êáé ðáñÜäïóç. Äåí êÜíù ôç Äéêáéïóýíç ãáñãÜñá êáé áðå÷èÜíïìáé ôüóï ôç óôõãíüôçôá ôùí AìåñéêÜíùí üóï êáé ôçí õðïêñéóßá ôùí EããëÝæùí ðïõ ðëáóÜñïõí üëïé ôïõò ôç ëýóç ùò ðñüôáóç ôïõ (÷åéñáãùãïýìåíïõ ðëÝïí) ïñãáíéóìïý HíùìÝíùí Eèíþí. Äåí èÝëù íá ìéëþ áðü åäþ êáé ðÝñá óôïõò ìáèçôÝò ìïõ êáé âáèéÜ ìÝóá ìïõ íá íéþèù êáñáãêéüæçò... its the random keyboard error madness! let me join the fun too!! áß餀¤€½¤€½€óóáßæ©æö©©©»¤€ßðáääåäóáßíµñ¡³é®á©«ö‘½¥×¥ð ðéé®þüúíóö«»¬´¶øðßáæ©ñµç¿‘¾³¡²€¼×¥ä<br> ;D
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 5, 2004 12:02:49 GMT -5
its the random keyboard error madness! No, it's the ordinary Windows Greek codepage...
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Post by HiNDI on Apr 5, 2004 12:25:42 GMT -5
Hellas!
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 5, 2004 14:05:56 GMT -5
That was a touching letter although I generally disagree. I support the Annan plan,I give faith to the Greek Cypriots.They will take advantage of the potential it gives and they will overkill all the drawbacks of it with the help of EU. And no,not everything is done for Turkey to get a negotiation starting date,Turkey won't fully join the EU for the next 50 years. People that support NO,say "Let's join EU as we are and then we see what happens." This is what I call ôõ÷ïäéùêôéóìïò. When they will vote no and take with them in the EU fora their Veto against Turkey they will meet all sorts of hellish pressure. It must be their burden . I expect the Greek goverment not to put mainland in trouble by backing them up.It took us 20 years to get rid of the veto and demonstrate to everybody that the reason that Turkey won't join is not Greek denial.
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 5, 2004 14:54:47 GMT -5
...or alas
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 5, 2004 15:30:48 GMT -5
That was a touching letter although I generally disagree. I support the Annan plan,I give faith to the Greek Cypriots.They will take advantage of the potential it gives and they will overkill all the drawbacks of it with the help of EU. And no,not everything is done for Turkey to get a negotiation starting date,Turkey won't fully join the EU for the next 50 years. People that support NO,say "Let's join EU as we are and then we see what happens." This is what I call ôõ÷ïäéùêôéóìïò. When they will vote no and take with them in the EU fora their Veto against Turkey they will meet all sorts of hellish pressure. It must be their burden . I expect the Greek goverment not to put mainland in trouble by backing them up.It took us 20 years to get rid of the veto and demonstrate to everybody that the reason that Turkey won't join is not Greek denial. It is not I do not trust the efforts and good will of the Greek Cypriots. It is the EU I do not trust, unlike yourself. It has no foreign policy, no defence policy and so far almost nobody in there (national governments mostly) cares for anything else other than their narrow national interests. More importantly I am not convinced it will still exist ten years down the road. At least not in the intended and hoped by many, way. What will remain is a grossly unjust agreement. An agreement that gives 10-12% of the population - the number of the Turkish Cypriots has been almost halved by the Turkish "protection" - not only a veto on any important decision but also a rotating presidency, the right to sign agreements with third countries, 28,5% of the land, almost 50% of the coastline, access to the wealth of the Greek Cypriots and much more. What do the vast majority of the people get? A few dozen inland villages that few want to live in, in an urbanized society such as that of free Cyprus, and half a city that needs to be demolished and rebuilt from scratch. 1/3 of the value of their stolen property and the right to some sort of compensation for the rest, a compensation to be paid by the Cyprus state, themselves that is. They will also have to pay for the relocation of whatever Turkish Cypriots and Turkish settlers are relocated and they will shoulder the cost of bringing the living standard of the thieves that Turkey brought to live in their houses, to the same level as their own. But all that is not important. Neither is the humiliation of having to call the ancient port of Keryneia ...Girne for Christ's sake. Not even the fact that their "country" will rely on foreign Judges, have no Defence Force, make certain decisions only if the UK, Turkey and Greece agree. What matters is that Turkey will have intervention rights not only in the "turkish constituent state" but the whole of Cyprus. All Greeks know what that means. We have been witnessing it for decades. Of course Greece and the UK will have the same right too. In theory only, at least in the case of Greece. Or is there anybody who believes a handful of Greek soldiers, unable to get reenforcements or be resupplied, without airforce and navy will stand a single chance in hell against the Turks, who will have all that?
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 5, 2004 16:12:41 GMT -5
It is not I do not trust the efforts and good will of the Greek Cypriots. It is the EU I do not trust, unlike yourself. It has no foreign policy, no defence policy and so far almost nobody in there (national governments mostly) cares for anything else other than their narrow national interests. More importantly I am not convinced it will still exist ten years down the road. At least not in the intended and hoped by many, way. What will remain is a grossly unjust agreement. An agreement that gives 10-12% of the population - the number of the Turkish Cypriots has been almost halved by the Turkish "protection" - not only a veto on any important decision but also a rotating presidency, the right to sign agreements with third countries, 28,5% of the land, almost 50% of the coastline, access to the wealth of the Greek Cypriots and much more. What do the vast majority of the people get? A few dozen inland villages that few want to live in, in an urbanized society such as that of free Cyprus, and half a city that needs to be demolished and rebuilt from scratch. 1/3 of the value of their stolen property and the right to some sort of compensation for the rest, a compensation to be paid by the Cyprus state, themselves that is. They will also have to pay for the relocation of whatever Turkish Cypriots and Turkish settlers are relocated and they will shoulder the cost of bringing the living standard of the thieves that Turkey brought to live in their houses, to the same level as their own. But all that is not important. Neither is the humiliation of having to call the ancient port of Keryneia ...Girne for Christ's sake. Not even the fact that their "country" will rely on foreign Judges, have no Defence Force, make certain decisions only if the UK, Turkey and Greece agree. What matters is that Turkey will have intervention rights not only in the "turkish constituent state" but the whole of Cyprus. All Greeks know what that means. We have been witnessing it for decades. Of course Greece and the UK will have the same right too. In theory only, at least in the case of Greece. Or is there anybody who believes a handful of Greek soldiers, unable to get reenforcements or be resupplied, without airforce and navy will stand a single chance in hell against the Turks, who will have all that? EU is an 0ne way road. It can only become a federation,there is not turning back.The ones that don't agree are left behind(Sweden,Denmark,UK stance towards Euro).Check my post on Concentric circles. I keep seeing this arguement about a handful of Greek troops that they will have to face a new invasion if Annan's plan becomes reality. Excuse me,it is time for a reality check.Cyprus has tenths of thousands of Turkish troops already in its northern part.Turkey has the strength to conquer free Cyprus like a walk in the Park as we talk. Why don't they do it?Annan's plan forces the huge bulk of Turkish troops to depart. What makes you think they will risk a new invasion to capture the island when they can't do it right now?Even if they will do that in the future (which is nigh on impossible in my opinion),it is possible that they will go to recaptivate the turkish sector that leaves territorial winnings if we see what goes on today. The northern part will automatically be the poorest region of europe.hat means it will automatically get loads of Euros from the EU. It is the federal goverment that will have to pay the damage,that means mostly EU. Coastline,villages ,cities ,they are winnings,which is important since they were lost from a violent aggressor (who was unfortunately for us,legitimate in the beggining ) Are you willing to fight and risk your life,your son's life and our prosperity to go to war for more? The new state will be a Federation. And I convinced that EU can secure the easy going political life of one of it's states. The euro currency is the biggest shield.And those rates about Turkish Cypriots having veto etc etc will eventually become obsolete and not valid .eg in a generation we will have mixed weddings. Has anyone thought of that? Who is gonna say which is the "internal" nationality(since there is gonna be only one real nationality for the rest of the world) of the offsprings? Sure Epikoi are a thorn in our side but Greek cypriots couldn't answer why the mass import of Greek pontioi from the former soviet union is much different situation. The thing that worries me the most is the fact that NO supporters have no solid opinion of what's next,when cyprus will be stripped of it's UN credibility ,carrying the veto-against-turkey burden and having a new minority problem since real turkish cypriots have already started to flee to the EU south. I decided to accept Annan plan when I made this little pattern. What is the best scenario if the referandum is a yes? Cyprus a united and prosperous state inside the EU safety. Which is the worse ? Cyprus more or less as it is today (de facto divided,soon to be de jure divided) What if the answer is no? Best scenario,Cyprus as it is today. Worst, Cyprus isolated politically with a new minority problem and forced to pay shit loads of money in arms that can't secure it's territorial integridy. Not to mention what are the consequencies for wider Greek-Turkish relations.
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 6, 2004 10:56:33 GMT -5
EU is an 0ne way road. It can only become a federation,there is not turning back.The ones that don't agree are left behind(Sweden,Denmark,UK stance towards Euro).Check my post on Concentric circles. Perhaps, but where is the test that will prove the theory? Has the EU survived a major economic crash or other major crisis? Will it definitely survive the test of time? Reality says that Cyprus today can field more men than Turkey can send within a reasonable time and with reasonable losses, if the Hellenic Airforce and Navy use bases on Cypriot soil. There are enough trained men, infrastructure and equipment to hold the Turks back for a long time and make the cost of an attack on free Cyprus prohibitive. None of these will be available if the Annan plan is implemented. More importantly, the Turks today could only provide feeble excuses and no legal grounds for an attack on free Cyprus. The Annan plan will make the first easier and give them the second. Why does Turkey insist on both military presence and intervention rights? Think. Surely genuine demilitarization with international guarantees should be enough for anyone planning a peaceful future for Cyprus. The EU will pay no compensation to anybody. Compensation will be paid by the future Cypriot state. That means the Greek Cypriots will pay compensation to themselves. BTW Cypriots will not have the right to go to the international Court of Human Rights and use the Titina Loizidou precedent. That lets Turkey off the hook. Lots of Euros will be spent in the north, not the south. For most projects though the EU requires the receiving state to provide something like 30% of the funds. Practically, Greek Cypriots paying the Turkish Cypriots (which I don't mind) and the settlers (which I do mind). Sorry but I refuse to enter into this bargaining logic. If some people, under whatever pretext, take over part of my property, I will do everything in my power, use any means, legal, illegal and even violent trying to get them out. If that is not possible, I will make their life difficult for as long as I live. What you can count on me never to do is, to forfeit my rights to the rest of my house, in exchange for shared use of the kitchen. Neither will I negotiate a washing up rota and give the squatters the right to take over the whole house if they "perceived" that the rota had been violated. My recent ancestors were mostly poor peasants. Their lifestyle was far from Sybaritic but they considered it bearable as long as they had honour. That is how I was brought up and that is how I hope my son will live as well. For that I am prepared to pay any price. No, I do not advocate war in Cyprus or a counter attack. We must always remember though that we only have what our ancestors were prepared to fight for. What we are not prepared to fight for, we will not have for long. Such are the ways of the world. What is worth fighting for? Where do you draw the line? The Turks want even Gavdos which is south of Crete Shall we let them have half the Aegean islands in order to prove our good intentions? But the Annan plan is from its nature divisive. Any future Cypriot will have to choose (if he can) what internal nationality he is going to be. Neither will they ever be left alone. What are we talking about? Luxemburg? The "mother" countries have the means to meddle. Political, educational, cultural, military... The Pontioi number 4-5,000. Less than 1% of the Greek Cypriots and were not settled in properties whose owners were forced out at gunpoint. They do not change the demography of the island and have fewer ties to Greece than the Greek Cypriots themselves. I am surprised that you bring the subject up even or that you compare them with the Anatolian settlers, who are almost equal in numbers to the Turkish Cypriots. Most NO supporters want the implementation of UN resolutions for a united Cyprus, human rights that are not chopped to the measure of the Turkish generals and safety for all Cypriots through complete demilitarization and inernational guarantees. What they don't want to see is the (grey) wolf guarding the sheep. How does that make them lose credibility? It is the defeatist Greek politicians (especially little Yorgos and the eternal Mitsotakis) who have stripped the whole Greek nation of credibility. Everybody assumes we will accept the slaps and turn the other cheek. If the Turkish Cypriots return to their homes and forsake Turkey as you suggest might happen, why should they be a threat, assuming they are treated as equals? Why would the Cypriots need to use their veto in Europe all the time if the Europeans have no intention of letting Turkey in? Not that the veto should never be used but who would even suggest closer co-operation with a country that occupies territory of a member state? So EU membership does not guarantee the independence of Cyprus? Or it does only do that with the Annan plan? You are contradicting yourself. Just remember the reasons why Cyprus applied for membership. I have said enough, I will stop here by saying that I feel Greece owes Cyprus. Big time. If it was not for Greece, Cyprus would not be in this mess. The Helladites can wash their hands all they like but the shame will not wash off.
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Praetor
Full Member
Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Apr 6, 2004 13:20:32 GMT -5
"Reality says that Cyprus today can field more men than Turkey can send within a reasonable time and with reasonable losses, if the Hellenic Airforce and Navy use bases on Cypriot soil. There are enough trained men, infrastructure and equipment to hold the Turks back for a long time and make the cost of an attack on free Cyprus prohibitive. None of these will be available if the Annan plan is implemented. "
I am surprised to hear these from you. Joint Greek cypriot and Greek troops are in deep disadvantage.Turkey has the key element of surprise since they are the aggressors. Air cover is null,the island is lost before we can send backup.Who is gonna stop the F16’s,battle tanks,50,000 of professional troops in the first 90 mins of invasion? Eldyk or Cypriot Militia? Give me a huge break here! Even if we base some Mirage 2000 they will prbably not have even the time to take off.
"More importantly, the Turks today could only provide feeble excuses and no legal grounds for an attack on free Cyprus. The Annan plan will make the first easier and give them the second. Why does Turkey insist on both military presence and intervention rights? Think. Surely genuine demilitarization with international guarantees should be enough for anyone planning a peaceful future for Cyprus."
Why are you in such denial? Annan's plan means that the military aftermath of Attila invasion is cancelled without a drop of Greek blood. For Turkey it is a huge step backwards.Annan plan forces Turks to repeat the same jump that they did in 1974 if they want to conquer again N.Cyprus,only this time they invade solid EU ground. Things have changed,turkish military leadership isn't that powerful anymore,Kissinger is no more a factor and Turkey will not be able to suffer such a cost once more.A second time agressor? Who would want that with open wounds in northern Iraq and Aegean?
"Perhaps, but where is the test that will prove the theory? Has the EU survived a major economic crash or other major crisis? Will it definitely survive the test of time?"
EU evolution has a past that already exceeds 50 years. And during this time has overcome many a crisis. And day after day it grows stronger.Single currency is just the beggining.If it wasn’t for UK (a pure dissident) the integration process would have already been far deeper.
"The EU will pay no compensation to anybody. Compensation will be paid by the future Cypriot state. That means the Greek Cypriots will pay compensation to themselves. BTW Cypriots ...Turkish Cypriots (which I don't mind) and the settlers (which I do mind)."
At start Cyprus is gonna be a net beneficiary of EU aid. One way or another EU is gonna pay a big portion of the rebuilding costs,north and south(why don’t you realize that more than half of the refugees are going home?).I don't see how we could have won any more.Loizidou case was a fine negotiation weapon that was used (although it could have brought even more gainings)
"Sorry but I refuse to enter into this bargaining logic. If some people, under whatever pretext, take over part of my property, I will do everything in my power, use any means, legal, illegal and even violent trying to get them out. If that is not possible, I will make their life difficult for as long as I live."
Congratulations.You have just described the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Is this what you want and wish for Greece?
"What you can count on me never to do is, to forfeit my rights to the rest of my house, in exchange for shared use of the kitchen. Neither will I negotiate a washing up rota and give the squatters the right to take over the whole house if they "perceived" that the rota had been violated. My recent ancestors were mostly poor peasants. Their lifestyle was far from Sybaritic but they considered it bearable as long as they had honour. That is how I was brought up and that is how I hope my son will live as well. For that I am prepared to pay any price. No, I do not advocate war in Cyprus or a counter attack. We must always remember though that we only have what our ancestors were prepared to fight for. What we are not prepared to fight for, we will not have for long. Such are the ways of the world. What is worth fighting for? Where do you draw the line? The Turks want even Gavdos which is south of Crete Shall we let them have half the Aegean islands in order to prove our good intentions?"
This whole piece is of course totally off topic. Thank god ,for the years that I've spent studying International Relations allow me to calculate what is best for my nation's interest without letting my emotions blur my logic. You should do the same. In order to maintain our strenght, integridty and prosperity we must play the game in our field. Diplomacy and economy.If we drop in the military power game we lose our advantage. Annan's plan is a difficult but winnable situation. I don't see any other winnable situation in the near future (less than 50 years that is).You should trust the EU more. Gunther Verheugen, the EU comissioner was probably the best non Greek ally Cyprus had since 1999.Ask Cypriots.
"The Pontioi number 4-5,000. Less than 1% of the Greek Cypriots and were not settled in properties whose owners were forced out at gunpoint. They do not change the demography of the island and have fewer ties to Greece than the Greek Cypriots themselves. I am surprised that you bring the subject up even or that you compare them with the Anatolian settlers, who are almost equal in numbers to the Turkish Cypriots"
The subject of Greeks that are non Cypriot(Pontioi ,Helladites or whatever,far more than 5,000) and live in the island is not brought by me,but from Turks. And Greeks failed to answer it properly.It doesn't matter what is right but what what international community perceives as right.
“Most NO supporters want the implementation of UN resolutions for a united Cyprus, human rights that are not chopped to the measure of the Turkish generals and safety for all Cypriots through complete demilitarization and inernational guarantees. What they don't want to see is the (grey) wolf guarding the sheep. How does that make them lose credibility?”<br> I am sad to inform you that UN resolutions are now interpreted in a bona fide mediation by the secretary General wheather we like it or not,wheather is right or wrong…Guess what it brought....the Annan plan itself. This plan that is about to be shot down cancels the previous resolutions. Welcome to the world of international politics.
“ It is the defeatist Greek politicians (especially little Yorgos and the eternal Mitsotakis) who have stripped the whole Greek nation of credibility. Everybody assumes we will accept the slaps and turn the other cheek. If the Turkish Cypriots return to their homes and forsake Turkey as you suggest might happen, why should they be a threat, assuming they are treated as equals?”<br> It is the defeatist Yorgos that created the most successful foreign policy we had since Venizelos time,that brought the brilliant Helsinki frame. Klerides was the second key factor for bringing Cyprus in the EU and the problem in a decent agreement. Tassos generously helped the Turks out of the corner. I pray to god that if Greek Cypriots vote NO, T/C will do the same. Our only chance right now is Rauf Denktash for crying out loud!
“Why would the Cypriots need to use their veto in Europe all the time if the Europeans have no intention of letting Turkey in? Not that the veto should never be used but who would even suggest closer co-operation with a country that occupies territory of a member state?”<br> You probably ignore what was happening the previous years. Cyprus not only can’t afford Turkey to join the EU,generally can’t afford to let financial aid be directed there. Dutchmen don’t mind if a fragment of their contribution goes for turkey ,after all they invest there. Try to explain to Cypriots(after Cyprus become a benefactor) where a small piece of the money they offer will end up. Europeans will offer agreements of all sorts to Turks (be it in economy,defence,customs,law etc) that help Turkey but don’t bring her in the EU. Cypriots will block once more. Since Annan’s plan is condemned wait 3-4 years to see this situation in its full grotesque form.cyprus is heading towards isolation. Greece must stay away.
“So EU membership does not guarantee the independence of Cyprus? Or it does only do that with the Annan plan? You are contradicting yourself. Just remember ...The Helladites can wash their hands all they like but the shame will not wash off.”<br> EU membership in the long run means safety for Greek Cypriot. In the short run they will have to pay their money to Russia to get some more of their expensive arms. Still, you failed to see the core of my pattern. What is the least winning if Annan plan is applied, is best winning if the plan fails. Sure ,Greece made severe mistakes in Cyprus ,with 1956 and 1974 being the top of it. Still,if it wasn’t for Greece,Cyprus would today be at best a British colony like Gibraltar. Greece owed Cyprus a lot. Since 1974 Greece paid in money and political effort and influence for Cyprus. Greece paid the debt with EU citizenship and Annan plan. If Cypriots deny this chance, they should only blame themselves from now on if they will remain in this mess.
In diplomacy one must hunt the impossible to gain what is the best possible,what is doable. Not refuse the doable for the impossible. The right is on the Greek side,sure but this is unfortunately irrelevant. If Greek Cypriots would reject the Annan plan for something better they have in hand it would be great,but unfortunately it is not the case.
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 6, 2004 18:13:46 GMT -5
I am surprised to hear these from you. Joint Greek cypriot and Greek troops are in deep disadvantage.Turkey has the key element of surprise since they are the aggressors. Air cover is null,the island is lost before we can send backup.Who is gonna stop the F16’s,battle tanks,50,000 of professional troops in the first 90 mins of invasion? Eldyk or Cypriot Militia? Give me a huge break here! Even if we base some Mirage 2000 they will prbably not have even the time to take off. The time of secret army concentrations and surprise land offensives has passed. Both countries have access to satellite images and sophisticated electronic equipment not to mention traditional ways of espionage and recce. The National Guard can have tens of thousands of men within hours. Many keep their rifles at home. Fighter jets on "readiness" can scramble within 3-5 minutes and helicopter gunships and multiple rocket launchers can deploy rapidly and halt an army's advance in no time. The means of defence exist. So do the excuses for not showing determination. The Annan plan does not cancel the Attila operation. It exonerates Attila, legalises its results, Attila is no longer an invasion but a legitimate operation of saviours. The plan is an invitation for its repeat, this time to finish the business and bring the whole of Cyprus under Turkish influence. Open wounds in the Aegean? What exactly do you mean? I thought the plan would give a major boost to Greek-Turkish co-operation according to your way of thinking. No, not in its current form and with a single currency. As for federalism it is still a future plan by some member states. I am not anti-EU, I just don't like putting all my eggs in the EU basket. The fact remains, the Greek Cypriots will compensate themselves and put in part of the dosh that will benefit the other side. The Loizidou case has not been used anywhere near enough. It can make Turkish EU membership a summer night's dream. Of course, I forgot we do not want that. We sponsor the pro-European Turks, so we tie our hands behind our backs and let them punch us. Suicide bombers and Intifada? No, we are not that desperate, yet. Some backbone would not go amiss though. Many extremely successful countries have it you know. OK, I will suspend my political rights until I study the same subjects as you, taught by the same people who taught you. I pressume Yorgakis studied there too. ;D I am afraid I would miserably have failed my exams. So would those who revolted against the Ottomans 183 years ago. I agree with you we should play on our strengths. The problem is, the other side tries to play on its strenghts too and keeps catching us with our pants down. Remember Imia? Had the Americans not intervened we would have been in even worse shit. Then the Greek government remembered they had not purchased any weapons for some ten years and rushed to the ...market. Yeah, one of my childhood friends lives there, he is married to a Cypriot. There are 20,000 of them. So what, we have to count Philippino servants and illegal Kurds as well? I expect that shit from a Turk, not a Greek So Bush's stooge is the personification of international politics? Is that why the Security Council refused to adopt his plan a couple of days ago? Yeah, Yorgakis has solved all our problems. Rauf Denktash does not like the fact he is pushed aside and can not see beyond his fat fascist nose. If the plan was against the wishes of the Turkish military they would have blocked it. So, all these years Greece was blocking agreements with Turkey, we were isolated and suffered. Mmm... I didn't see any suffering. What I see is people fighting for justice, while those responsible for their misfortune, namely Turkey, Greece and Britain are trying to shove down their throat an agreement they do not want. I see Greeks who refuse to sign away lands that have been Greek for millenia, like Karpasia. Who refuse to exchange ancient Salamis for some Maronite villages. I see refugees rejecting this deal by 81%. A deal that is supposed to benefit them mostly. Are they mad? They are mad Greeks, thank God, and luckily they have not studied international relations.
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Post by kynikos on Apr 7, 2004 15:34:19 GMT -5
Hi Guys
I must say that even though I find Greek chauvinism, on the whole, a sad joke, and I think I can see the "reason" of Praetor's views, I have to go with Artemidoros on this one.
There is ultimately ONE simple issue:- 1974 was an illegal invasion. Period. If this in not 100% acknowledged, then there is an outstanding moral issue.
Shit, the US mobilised into Iraq for less. Yes, Praetor, it IS the world of "international politics", but it's good to see HUMAN spirit stand up to it for a change. Stuff "international politics" for once.
I think the Cypriot politicians gave the Greek ones a lesson in integrity. Hell, and normally I am not even a great friend of the Cypriots! Credit where credit is due though!
ÌððÜâï óôïõò Êýðñéïõò ðïëéôéêïýò! Êáéñü åß÷áìå íá áêïýóïõìå êáé Ýíá óùóôü «Ï×É»!
Well done to the Cypriot politicians! About time someone stood up and said NO!
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Post by Artemidoros on Apr 11, 2004 11:34:54 GMT -5
Easter is real this year. For days I have been reading everything I can find in Greek and Cypriot newspapers, especially readers letters. I have been reading posts in internet fora. I have never seen such anger, such passion. Thrones will crumble. 30 years on Cyprus is changing Greece again. Thank you Cyprus. Christos Anesti.
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Ioulianos
Full Member
Anegnon,Egnon,Kategnon
Posts: 199
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Post by Ioulianos on Apr 12, 2004 15:15:15 GMT -5
Greeks still exist,they live in Cyprus.As politicians in Greece,ive never felt for one as i feel now for George Papandreou.Ï ñáãéáäéóìïÓ áõôïõ ôïõ áíèñùðïõ ìïõ ðñïêáëåé áðïóôñïöç.May Greece have leanders in the future like president Papadopoulos.
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Post by Satyros on Apr 14, 2004 15:19:30 GMT -5
ÂëÝðù Áñôåìßäùñå, Ýñ÷åóáé óôá ëüãéá ìïõ óéãÜ óéãÜ... So we see that Praetor and his hero, Georgakis Papandreou, are based on a certain diplomatic action. Actually it is not an action, as it does not show any kind of activity. It is actually passive, yes, it is the "art" of compromise. It is sad to see a young politial scientist like Praetor -maybe a future diplomat representing Greece in the future, adopting the same defeatist, whore-like method, the method of compromise. What we forget is that Greece and Hellenism are not a WHORE-HOUSE, but an Idea, a reality, a historical passing..... Have you forgoten all that Praetor? Your hero, the American passport fag named Yorgakis, the favourite ãéïõóïõöÜêé boy of the Turkish politicians, was THE FIRST ONE to accept the plan, with most of the PASOK members following the acceptance opinion. Fortunately the New Democracy party was not THAT TREASONOUS, and stood for the NO answer to the plan. But nevertheless, the Greek side is practically invisible, not existing, when at the same time, the American statesmen and the Turkish generals/politicians, are the ones who are deciding what is going to happen. How is the truth for you Praetor? What will be the difference between a Cypriot citizen of the "YES" Cyprus, and a slave, who only lives because he can consume food? Do you regard Praetor Greeks and Greek Cypriots as machines who eat and shit, without the need for any further identity? If someone Praetor, rapes and destroys your family, then what will your future goal be? To be able to live with him in peace, or maybe to stick your knife deep in his stomach and then taste the blood from his liver? Congratulations Praetor, you are a perfect political representative of the modern Greek animal, a true animal, without any other concern apart from the fact that it has to fill its belly with food. What was the way to get rid of the stinky Turk in the first place? Was it not freedom or death? Well, then in some cases i guess DEATH would be the thing, wouldnt it Praetor? Maybe a war between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey TODAY, would be a good way to test the actual existence and the allegiances of EU, dont you think so? Because sometimes, you have to fight even if victory is completely impossible, you have to fight because history demands it Praetor, and if you guess which Greek leader said that, you win a lollip in the shape of the penis of Tayip Erdogan...
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