Terp
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by Terp on Dec 21, 2005 1:58:32 GMT -5
This plot is based on C-score data, according to the caption in the original article. C-scores are supposed to be independent of overall size, so dental reduction in the agricultural era can't explain the position of Egyptians on this plot. Genetic relatedness can.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 2:04:24 GMT -5
This plot is based on C-score data, according to the caption in the original article. C-scores are supposed to be independent of overall size, so dental reduction in the agricultural era can't explain the position of Egyptians on this plot. Genetic relatedness can. Well I would say you're wrong because predynastic Egyptians are not closely related genetically to Afghans and neither are Kenyans to West Melanesians and Somalis to South Chinese, looks like someone put their foot in their mouth again.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Dec 21, 2005 2:06:50 GMT -5
Morphological relatedness, then. At least of the teeth.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 2:12:36 GMT -5
Morphological relatedness, then. At least of the teeth. That would seem to rule out teeth being some type of "racial" indicator.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 21, 2005 2:14:55 GMT -5
I think of it as Jack Johnson vs the white boxers he embarrassed. the point of the matter is this, Nubians who are black have teeth that group them with Egyptians and other North Africans because they're all biologically related, so massed reduced teeth does not a caucasoid make and Irish never stated that, it was you who said that. First of all, your assumption that Nubians are pure Negroids is unfounded. Second, Irish was clear: "however, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). " Last time I checked north Africa, western Asia and Europe are inhabited by Caucasoids.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Dec 21, 2005 2:22:42 GMT -5
Charlie, I would like to see where you're getting the idea that Nubians were more Negroid than West Africans. Given the arid climate of Nubia, I find it unlikely that Nubians would have an even broader racial constitution than West Africans. But then again the Sahara region wasn't always desert. Still, a source is called for.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 2:27:52 GMT -5
I think of it as Jack Johnson vs the white boxers he embarrassed. the point of the matter is this, Nubians who are black have teeth that group them with Egyptians and other North Africans because they're all biologically related, so massed reduced teeth does not a caucasoid make and Irish never stated that, it was you who said that. First of all, your assumption that Nubians are pure Negroids is unfounded. Nubians are Negroids of the Elongated variety period, so my "assumption is founded and backed by studies. Irish didn't use a wide Nubian sample in his latest study but he did in another one of his studies and they were found to cluster with North Africans. Also explain what a pure Negroid is, san the pseudo-taxon "true Negro". as have already been stated: "The view that “elongated” characteristics are indigenous and equally tropical African (“Black) for specific archaeological series and peoples is supported by Gabel (19661, Hiernaux (1975), and Rightmire (1975a,b)." AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254 (1992) the populations used in Irish's "greater North African samples in his previous studies consisted on Nubians, i even posted the dendogram to show it.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 2:29:25 GMT -5
Charlie, I would like to see where you're getting the idea that Nubians were more Negroid than West Africans. Given the arid climate of Nubia, I find it unlikely that Nubians would have an even broader racial constitution than West Africans. But then again the Sahara region wasn't always desert. Still, a source is called for. I said Late Paleolithic Nubians were more "Negroid" than modern West Africans, no Bronze Age, Christian Era, and recent ones Mike.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 21, 2005 3:57:57 GMT -5
Ok, the fact that Egyptians and Nubians cluster with Europeans and West Asians proves that they were Negroids Your logic is impeccable.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 4:16:33 GMT -5
Ok, the fact that Egyptians and Nubians cluster with Europeans and West Asians proves that they were Negroids Your logic is impeccable. Lets get this correct Pontikos, Upper egyptians, predynastic and dynastic cluster closer to together than either cluster with Europeans for the fact that both were of the Elongated variety, Its not my fault that your mind only sees true Negroes as west and central Africans only.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Dec 21, 2005 4:48:34 GMT -5
Even with the facts dead in your face,you still deny it. Guess your IQ drops on daily basis ,Bass...Pathetic!
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Post by atlantis on Dec 21, 2005 5:00:45 GMT -5
This work is nothing new to me, I had read it before but don't remember exactly where. In the meantime: The analysis of discrete dental traits is often used to determine biological relationships of populations using dental remains. The recent work of JD Irish (Irish 1997, 1998a, 1998b) examines several African popuations and concludes that Egyptian populations show more dental similarity to modern North Africans, Arabs, and even Europeans, than to Sub-Saharan Africans. The diagram below (adapted from Irish, 1998b) shows the results of a statistical cluster analysis. It demonstrates that ancient Egyptian dental configuration resembles that of recent North Africans, rather than sub-Saharan Africans. The appearance of Nubian groups in the North African cluster may seem surprising at first, but this may well be due to proximity and gene flow with neighboring North African peoples. Indeed, other North African traits have been found in some Nubian groups as well — in genetics (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, Krings et. al 1999), and hair Hrdy (1978) — although of course Nubians in general show significantly stronger sub-Saharan influences than do Egyptians. Figure: Cluster dendrogram. green: Egyptians; blue: Mediterranean North Africans; yellow: Nubians; white: England; red: sub-Saharan Africans; black: Mesolithic Nubians. Sources: Irish, J. D. 1997. Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 102(4):455-67. Irish, J. D. 1998a. Ancestral Dental Traits in Recent Sub-Saharan Africans and the Origin of Modern Humans, Journal of Human Evolution 34:81-98. Irish J. D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., P. Menozzi, and A. Piazza. 1994. The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Krings M, et al. 1999. mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? American Journal of Human Genetics 64(4):1166-1176 Hrdy, D. B. 1978. Analysis of hair samples of mummies from Semma South (Sudanese Nubia). American Journal of Physical Anthropology 49(2):277-82.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 5:11:05 GMT -5
This work is nothing new to me, I had read it before but don't remember exactly where. In the meantime: The analysis of discrete dental traits is often used to determine biological relationships of populations using dental remains. The recent work of JD Irish (Irish 1997, 1998a, 1998b) examines several African popuations and concludes that Egyptian populations show more dental similarity to modern North Africans, Arabs, and even Europeans, than to Sub-Saharan Africans. The diagram below (adapted from Irish, 1998b) shows the results of a statistical cluster analysis. It demonstrates that ancient Egyptian dental configuration resembles that of recent North Africans, rather than sub-Saharan Africans. The appearance of Nubian groups in the North African cluster may seem surprising at first, but this may well be due to proximity and gene flow with neighboring North African peoples. Indeed, other North African traits have been found in some Nubian groups as well — in genetics (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, Krings et. al 1999), and hair Hrdy (1978) — although of course Nubians in general show significantly stronger sub-Saharan influences than do Egyptians. Figure: Cluster dendrogram. green: Egyptians; blue: Mediterranean North Africans; yellow: Nubians; white: England; red: sub-Saharan Africans; black: Mesolithic Nubians. Sources: Irish, J. D. 1997. Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 102(4):455-67. Irish, J. D. 1998a. Ancestral Dental Traits in Recent Sub-Saharan Africans and the Origin of Modern Humans, Journal of Human Evolution 34:81-98. Irish J. D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., P. Menozzi, and A. Piazza. 1994. The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Krings M, et al. 1999. mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? American Journal of Human Genetics 64(4):1166-1176 Hrdy, D. B. 1978. Analysis of hair samples of mummies from Semma South (Sudanese Nubia). American Journal of Physical Anthropology 49(2):277-82. This is copy and paste from a website created by a layman
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Post by atlantis on Dec 21, 2005 5:19:13 GMT -5
This work is nothing new to me, I had read it before but don't remember exactly where. In the meantime: The analysis of discrete dental traits is often used to determine biological relationships of populations using dental remains. The recent work of JD Irish (Irish 1997, 1998a, 1998b) examines several African popuations and concludes that Egyptian populations show more dental similarity to modern North Africans, Arabs, and even Europeans, than to Sub-Saharan Africans. The diagram below (adapted from Irish, 1998b) shows the results of a statistical cluster analysis. It demonstrates that ancient Egyptian dental configuration resembles that of recent North Africans, rather than sub-Saharan Africans. The appearance of Nubian groups in the North African cluster may seem surprising at first, but this may well be due to proximity and gene flow with neighboring North African peoples. Indeed, other North African traits have been found in some Nubian groups as well — in genetics (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, Krings et. al 1999), and hair Hrdy (1978) — although of course Nubians in general show significantly stronger sub-Saharan influences than do Egyptians. Figure: Cluster dendrogram. green: Egyptians; blue: Mediterranean North Africans; yellow: Nubians; white: England; red: sub-Saharan Africans; black: Mesolithic Nubians. Sources: Irish, J. D. 1997. Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 102(4):455-67. Irish, J. D. 1998a. Ancestral Dental Traits in Recent Sub-Saharan Africans and the Origin of Modern Humans, Journal of Human Evolution 34:81-98. Irish J. D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., P. Menozzi, and A. Piazza. 1994. The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Krings M, et al. 1999. mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? American Journal of Human Genetics 64(4):1166-1176 Hrdy, D. B. 1978. Analysis of hair samples of mummies from Semma South (Sudanese Nubia). American Journal of Physical Anthropology 49(2):277-82. This is copy and paste from a website created by a layman I used the same diagram as that of yours: Correction: Nubians clustered with the North African samples so is there likewise zero evidence for Negroid Nubians? So now suddenly it is not reliable Btw of course it's a copy and paste, do you really think I went to research the mummies myself. But the sources are there, now refute them with serious counter arguments or accept them as fact.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 5:33:07 GMT -5
This is copy and paste from a website created by a layman I used the same diagram as that of yours: Correction: Nubians clustered with the North African samples so is there likewise zero evidence for Negroid Nubians? So now suddenly it is not reliable Btw of course it's a copy and paste, do you really think I went to research the mummies myself. But the sources are there, now refute them with serious counter arguments or accept them as fact. What is there to refute? Nubians are amongst the "North Africans" on that dendogram and Nubians were and still are black. Joel Irish never stated the position of the Nubians on that map was due to admixture, that was the words of that layman from whom you copied and pasted from. I have emailed Brace myself and he gave me clarification on Nubians and Upper Egyptians and he said neither were Caucasoids.
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