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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 4:52:29 GMT -5
Correction: Nubians clustered with the North African smaples so is there likewise zero evidence for Negroid Nubians? The affiliations with West Eurasians of Nubians were also shown by Brace's analyses. Quite clearly, Nubians were not Negroids, although they were Negroid-influenced. According to you, Ethiopians are "blacks", but genetic clustering reveals them to be more similar to West Eurasians than to their black "cousins". I only accept hard data, and Egyptians are clearly shown to be closer to Greeks dentally than to Somalis and Sub-Saharans. Deal with it. Wrong, I have communicated with Brace personally he and he does not believe this to be the case: "Somehow the Groves and Thorne paper never came through, but I went to the library and read it there. Their results are similar to ours in many ways. And you're right, there is no evidence of for "Caucasoids" in Nubia. We have Bronze Age Nubians and more recent ones, and they are essentially the same." The point here is that since Nubians didn't cluster with "sub-Saharans" based on dental traits do they too exhibit "ZERO" Negroid influence as you stated about ancient Egyptians? But you just contradicted yourself because you said Nubians are Negroid influenced. Truth is, Nubians are Negroids of the Elongated type which is as equally "Negroid" as West Africans. "The view that “elongated” characteristics are indigenous and equally tropical African (“Black) for specific archaeological series and peoples is supported by Gabel (19661, Hiernaux (1975), and Rightmire (1975a,b)." AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254 (1992)
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 19, 2005 4:53:37 GMT -5
It is about time that American Negroids would stop fantasizing about having a connection with Ancient Egypt which was a Mediterranean Caucasoid civilization and focus on their real history.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 19, 2005 4:56:41 GMT -5
I only accept hard data, and Egyptians are clearly shown to be closer to Greeks dentally than to Somalis and Sub-Saharans. Deal with it. Wrong, I have communicated with Brace personally he and he does not believe this to be the case: Not interested in your "personal communications". You are neither reliable nor impartial. I only take published articles that have undergone the peer review process as evidence. Two such studies clearly demonstrate that Ancient Egyptians did not resemble Sub-Saharan Africans dentally. If you have something to add on topic, please do so.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 4:59:57 GMT -5
Even if Ethiopians cluster with Eurasians more than their black "cousins", why do they look more like their black "cousins" than they do Eurasians? The same could have been for Egypt then Ethiopians look just as what they are in-between Caucasoids and Negroids. They certainly don't look more similar to Negroids than to Caucasoids from across the Red Sea. They look exactly as what they are, a population of diverse origins, include proto-East African, Caucasoid and Negroid. And what is proto-east African suppose to mean? If you're referring to Howells study I have a surprise for you, but moving along where did the "Negroid" element in Ethiopians come from since their sub-Saharan East African component was virtually untouched by Bantus and west Africans[*YOUR* true Negroes]? As Kivisild has stated: "Phylogenetic analysis reveals that the origin of sub-Saharan African mtDNA variants in Yemenis is a mosaic of different episodes of gene flow. Three different passages can be outlined. The first is gene flow, likely mediated by the Arab slave trade from southeastern Africa, as evidenced by exact mtDNA haplotype matches. Such matches account for 23% of the total variation in Yemenis and occur in lineages and lineage groups that cannot be found in Ethiopia and northeastern Africa. Many of these can be traced to the Bantu dispersal; they have their origin in West Africa and supply thereby the upper time limit of 3,000–4,000 years for their departure from southeastern Africa toward Arabia. The sub-Saharan African component of Ethiopians has remained untouched by such influences and may therefore be considered most representative of the indigenous gene pool of sub-Saharan East Africa." Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears Toomas Kivisild - 2004 There use have it, Ethiopians were untouched by your "true Negroids". Heck, even Yemenis are more "Negroid" influenced genetically than Ethiopians[of course using *your* logic of what is Negroid].
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 5:01:55 GMT -5
It is about time that American Negroids would stop fantasizing about having a connection with Ancient Egypt which was a Mediterranean Caucasoid civilization and focus on their real history. This is ad-homimen and inconsequent to the fact because no one here from america was claiming Egypt, which was an African civilization which core roots lie in Saharan and Nilotic groups[see Fekri Hassan for details].
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 5:05:22 GMT -5
Wrong, I have communicated with Brace personally he and he does not believe this to be the case: Not interested in your "personal communications". You are neither reliable nor impartial. I only take published articles that have undergone the peer review process as evidence. Two such studies clearly demonstrate that Ancient Egyptians did not resemble Sub-Saharan Africans dentally. If you have something to add on topic, please do so. What I wrote was on topic and I communicated with Brace for the purpose of getting his exact opinions of his studies not laymen interpretations from you. If you like why don't you email him? What I said was on topic for you said based on dental traits according to Irish's study, there is ZERO evidence for Negroid Egyptians because they didn't cluster with sub-Saharans. In another study Nubians clustered with North Africans so do is there likewise ZERO evidence for Negroid Nubians? Irish never made any such suggestions but you did, so please answer.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 19, 2005 5:28:32 GMT -5
The problem with your theorizing is that the data, hell, even the dendrogram you posted, prove my points.
If you have data regarding the dental affinities of Ancient Egyptians, i.e., relevant to the topic of this thread, please post them. Until then, I'm happy with the two studies that I posted and their conclusions.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 5:32:05 GMT -5
The problem with your theorizing is that the data, hell, even the dendrogram you posted, prove my points. If you have data regarding the dental affinities of Ancient Egyptians, i.e., relevant to the topic of this thread, please post them. Until then, I'm happy with the two studies that I posted and their conclusions. So basically you have no answers to what I said, nor have you proven there is ZERO proof for Negroid ancient Egyptians, not even Brace believes that. Thats was a statement that *YOU* made and you obviously ingored the references I made to Keita, Brace, Prowse, and Lovell.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 5:37:47 GMT -5
Since you believe Nubians are "Negroid" influenced and that there's ZERO proof for Negroid Egyptians:
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 101:237-246 (1996)
Concordance of Cranial and Dental Morphological Traits and Evidence for Endogamy in Ancient Egypt
ABSTRACT A biological aMinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphologi- cal analysis. Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individu- als buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently non- elite cemeteries and that the nonelite samples are not significantly different from each other. A comparison with neighbouring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighbouring populations in south- ern Egypt. o 1996 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Answers for this?
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 5:39:54 GMT -5
Correction: Nubians clustered with the North African smaples so is there likewise zero evidence for Negroid Nubians? The affiliations with West Eurasians of Nubians were also shown by Brace's analyses. Quite clearly, Nubians were not Negroids, although they were Negroid-influenced. According to you, Ethiopians are "blacks", but genetic clustering reveals them to be more similar to West Eurasians than to their black "cousins". I only accept hard data, and Egyptians are clearly shown to be closer to Greeks dentally than to Somalis and Sub-Saharans. Deal with it. Correction, Greeks are major outliers to ancient egyptians while Gebel Ramallah from Nubia is closer to Early Upper Egyptians are Badarians than Greeks are.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Dec 19, 2005 5:42:36 GMT -5
Lol, Irish is quoting the various theories about the origins of pre-dynastic peoples. Is that the best you can do? No more attempts to mislead please. [/img] I'm stating what Irish stated, not what you presume him to have stated based on you taking his studies out of context, lol! At any rate, Naqada and Badarians were not Caucasoids.[/quote] Bass your a redundant vasty deluded nutcase doofus where is your proof that Egyptian civilization was a Saharan African Civilzation ? LOL! Its very irritating hearing the same nonsense repeatedly from a negrophile wanna-be Egyptian! The Bandarians and Naqadans where still Causasoids Bass...get over it already. Its always the same boring thing with you, once you loose with the Dynastic Egyptians you swing to the PreDynastics.Enough already! C. Loring Brace : <<The likelihood of that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small, around 0.000 and 0.001. Whatever else one can or cannot say about the Egyptians, it is clear that their craniofacial morphology has nothing whatsoever in common with sub-Saharan Africans. Our data then, provides no support for the claim that there was a "strong Negroid element in Predynastic Egypt>> More from Brace: "There is the very real possibility, for example, that the darker skin pigmentation visible in the people of the Upper Nile is not caused by the mixing of a population that come from somewhere else." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 20) "As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19) Furthermore I already previously told you to stop inventing your "Personal Message" B.S on trying to discredit Brace among others who follow his honestlywork...And you should be in fact truly reading and comprehending the studies/charts/graphs you "try' to cite instead of butchering them to death, with your mental retardation. and Basshole, read " Black Athena Revisited"....again your just hapless fool limited to citing a known agenda driven Keita verbatim . Very Poor!
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 8:51:57 GMT -5
Bass your a redundant vasty deluded nutcase doofus where is your proof that Egyptian civilization was a Saharan African Civilzation ? LOL! Its very irritating hearing the same nonsense repeatedly from a negrophile wanna-be Egyptian! Insults, nothing of value. Proof that Badarians and Naqadans were Caucasoids? I can forward those emails me and Brace had to a reliable person here to prove I made nothing up and my intent was not discrediting Brace for I have personally communicated with him and got his word, not the words of message board laymans like you and Pontikos. Ad-hominem insult.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 19, 2005 11:00:54 GMT -5
Keita on Brace et tal
EARLY NILE VALLEY FARMERS FROM EL-BADARI Aboriginals or “European”Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data
S. O. Y. KEITA National Human Genome Center at Howard University Department of Anthropology, Smithsonian Institution
"One approach, although limited, with which to explore the possibility of migration in earlier times, is through analysis of craniometric affinities. Previous studies have not specifically addressed the immigration of farmers from Europe into the NileValley. However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a series of upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster analysis with groups they designate “sub-Saharan African” or just simply “African” (from which they incorrectly exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian southern predynastic and a late dynastic northern series (called “E” or Gizeh) cluster together, and secondarily with Europeans. In the primary cluster with the Egyptian groups are also remains representing populations from the ancient Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al. (1993) seemingly interpret these results as indicating a population relationship from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa, although the mechanism for this is not clearly stated; they also state that the Egyptians had no relationship with sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic, although sometimes seemingly including Somalia, which directly undermines aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity."
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 19, 2005 17:37:56 GMT -5
Off-topic posts = Warning #1.
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byz
Full Member
rodostamo na ginesai
Posts: 171
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Post by byz on Dec 19, 2005 19:51:38 GMT -5
not the words of message board laymans like you and Pontikos Ad-hominem and unjustifiably patronising.
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