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Post by gelaye on Nov 15, 2005 15:17:08 GMT -5
Did they ever interbreed with homosapiens? I still think of them as just being dumb cavemen, like the same species as humans lol but just really primitive.
Did they view one another as, say, we would view a chimpanzee or would it be like two Races seeing eachother? would they find one another sexually attractive?
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 15, 2005 15:33:15 GMT -5
Well, I dont think Homo sapiens found Neandertals attractive, but we know from experience that at least single humans have always sex with almost everything if its at least possible or there is no other choice.
However, if mixture took place I would say rather with the more progressive Near Eastern Neandertals, not so, at least not successfully (either infertile hybrids or no surviving mixed lines) with classic European Neandertals.
I think that the Neandertals in the Near East were extinct as well, but there has much to be done to be sure about that. But again if, significant influence came from there and not from classical Neandertals of Europe which were highly overspecialised and go extinct most likely.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Nov 15, 2005 15:37:39 GMT -5
The question isn't whether Neanderthal-human breeding occurred but how much. According to a flawed 1997 study, Neanderthals were said to have definitively not bred with humans. But they only tested mitochondrial dna, not Y-chromosome information. And they didn't focus their testing on Europeans, but included subjects from Asia and Africa--places not known to have Neanderthals. (Neanderthal existed in Europe and the Middle East. It survived longest in Western Europe, where it died out in Spain and France.) So rather than concentrating their studies on Europeans (who are most liklely to have bred with Neanderthal) they lumped in Chinese people and Africans and declared, "Voila! No mating occurred." But the 1997 study soon came under attack. Look at this San Francisco Chronicle article, entitled Neanderthal love: Scientists split over how much mating occurred Here's the beginning of the article: A debate is raging among anthropologists over whether and how much our ancestors mated with Neanderthals. The hominids with the large brows and ultra-muscular bodies were once thought to be a forerunner of modern man, then a separate species of humans who developed independently and died out as humans spread into Europe. Now, as evidence emerges that humans and Neanderthals likely shared the same space for thousands of years, some scientists consider them likely contributors to the modern human gene pool. These anthropologists believe that when early modern humans, the first built more or less like us, came upon Neanderthals around 35,000 years ago in Europe, the groups would have been too similar not to have mated. "They both would have been dirty and smelly by our standards," says Eric Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis. "They would have been oblivious to the small anatomical differences, like certain details at the base of the Neanderthal skull. To each other, they would have both been people." Trinkaus co-authored a paper in the latest edition of the journal Nature that dates a collection of curious bones from a cave in Mladec, Czech Republic, at 31,000 years, roughly the time in which Neanderthals were dying out on The Continent. Although scientists agree the bones belonged to early modern humans, the fossils have a number of Neanderthal-like traits, including broad noses, large teeth and a kind of bun in the back of the head where the skull bulges out. "The Mladec people show that European origins are mixed," said Milford Wolpoff, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan. "You can see it in their remains." Wolpoff has long opposed the widely accepted theory that the features of modern humans more or less developed in Africa and changed little as humans fanned out into Asia and Europe. He believes humans came from a blend of early modern humans and various archaic hominids they encountered while migrating. * You can read the rest of the article at www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/19/INGEOD8LBB1.DTL
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Post by gelaye on Nov 15, 2005 15:47:57 GMT -5
yeah that kinda answers the question - they would have regarded eachother as people wouldnt they? Hahaha at white supremacists! whos more likely to be the ooga booga primitive neandertal now eh?
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 15, 2005 15:51:15 GMT -5
Forget Wolpoff, he will always claim that mixture even with European Neandertals took place and was significant. His arguments are generally weak. The only good argument would be that he looks almost like a Neandertal himself *lol* His idea of that there was no extinction and exclusive developments in sapiens is just flawed and ideologically motivated. Better read this, originally posted by Mynydd on Stirpes: forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=6086Cro-Magnons Conquered Europe, but Left Neanderthals Alone
Public Library of Science 30 November 2005
After miners unearthed a skull and bones in a Neander Valley cave in Germany in 1856—three years before the publication of On the Origin of Species—the remains were initially described as either those of a “brutish” race or of someone disfigured by disease. As Darwinian evolution caught on, so did the realization that these fossils were evidence of an earlier human species. Scientists have been debating Neanderthal's place in human evolution ever since. An ongoing question concerns the possibility that Neanderthals and early humans mated, since they likely crossed paths during thousands of years of European cohabitation. In a new study, Mathias Currat and Laurent Excoffier present a simulation model based on what we know about the population density and distribution of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Their results complement recent genetic and morphological evidence indicating that early human and Neanderthal interbreeding was unlikely. The notion that modern Europeans directly descended from Neanderthals has mostly yielded to two competing models: One postulates that modern humans arose in Africa about 130,000 years ago and completely replaced coexisting archaic forms with no interbreeding, while the other proposes a gradual transition with interbreeding. Though mounting genetic evidence (based on mitochondrial DNA extracted from fossils) suggests Neanderthals and early humans did not breed, the evidence has been inconclusive. It's possible, for example, that any Neanderthal gene “leakage” could have been lost through genetic drift if the mating populations were small. And because so few fossils are available to analyze, previous studies could rule out only Neanderthal contributions over 25%. Currat and Excoffier's model refines various parameters—such as geographic boundaries, local population variations, range expansion, and competition for resources—based on archeological and demographic data for both populations. Evidence suggests modern humans replaced Neanderthals over 12,500 years, for example, which constrains the speed at which modern humans could expand. The authors started with a scenario based on a set of “plausible” parameter values—their basic scenario—and then varied the local interbreeding rate and, for example, the population size and location of Cro-Magnons, to produce eight alternate scenarios describing how Cro-Magnon colonization of Europe might have proceeded. They estimated the likely proportion of Neanderthal gene contributions to the modern gene pool using “coalescent simulations,” which generate the genealogies and diversity of genes in local populations based on simulations of their population densities and migration histories. The simulations show that if Neanderthals bred with Cro-Magnons without constraints over thousands of years, Neanderthal contributions to the modern gene pool “would be immense.” Surprisingly, the simulations also show that even a very small mixing should lead to high levels of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans. Reconstruction of a Neanderthal womanWhat could account for this counterintuitive result? Given a low population density with small local breeding populations, any introduction of Neanderthal genes would decrease the frequency of Cro-Magnon genes of that population; if these Neanderthal integrations take place as the Cro-Magnon population is expanding, newly acquired Neanderthal genes would also be amplified. Since no Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA has been found in modern-day Europeans, the authors modeled the maximum number of interbreeding events that would support this observation. The estimated maximum number of events, it turns out, falls between 34 and 120—extremely low values, Currat and Excoffier conclude, “given the fact that the two populations must have coexisted for more than 12,000 years.” While the authors acknowledge their simulations suggest rather than reflect reality, their model does incorporate real historical data such as Cro-Magnon expansion over time and local population growth. At a value of only 0.1%, their new estimate of the rate of interbreeding is about 400 times lower than previous estimates and provides strong support that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon didn't interbreed and may even have been different species. [source]
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Post by eufrenio on Nov 15, 2005 16:01:44 GMT -5
Well, I dont think Homo sapiens found Neandertals attractive, but we know from experience that at least single humans have always sex with almost everything if its at least possible or there is no other choice. . That´s true! I´m sure that this lady would be laid on a saturday night anywhere today! ;D She´ll start to look good after a couple of drinks.
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Post by aroundtheworld on Nov 16, 2005 20:03:46 GMT -5
I see people that look nearly identical to this woman daily. I have German relatives who look just like this-especially that brow ridge that juts out and the forehead wrinkles.
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Post by Educate Me on Nov 16, 2005 20:07:22 GMT -5
probably, if it happened it was neanderthal men modern human women
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Post by asdf on Nov 16, 2005 20:07:56 GMT -5
White supremacists generally believe Europeans are partially-Neanderthal more often than anyone else.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 16, 2005 20:51:59 GMT -5
I see people that look nearly identical to this woman daily. I have German relatives who look just like this-especially that brow ridge that juts out and the forehead wrinkles. You seem to be joking. However, thats just a friendly reconstruction, the real ones might have looked even worse after most reconstructions I know. Usually the dominant group defends the own women and doesnt let foreign males in as often as it does the same with women. Sapiens were organised in somewhat bigger and better organised groups, had better tools and techniques, most likely tactics in war as well. That sapiens took Neandertal females was just more likely in my opinion.
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Post by Batrus on Nov 17, 2005 11:33:02 GMT -5
I agree. I think that a good example for that is America. Spanish conquerors taking aborigin women.
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Post by ndrthl on Nov 24, 2005 16:21:07 GMT -5
most probably, we will never know what happened exactly... if it were possible to travel back to the past, id do it, to know for sure.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Nov 24, 2005 17:49:04 GMT -5
Well, I dont think Homo sapiens found Neandertals attractive, but we know from experience that at least single humans have always sex with almost everything if its at least possible or there is no other choice. . That´s true! I´m sure that this lady would be laid on a saturday night anywhere today! ;D She´ll start to look good after a couple of drinks. I think is safe to assume she and other female Neanderthals where very hairy,which no doubt covered much of their entire bodies....I don't believe they where likely to have shaven unless at some point Humans introduced shaving to them just prior to their extinction.
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Post by Cerdic on Nov 28, 2005 10:38:14 GMT -5
It should be noted that Neanderthals had larger brains than the modern human average. They also made personal adornments (animal teeth grooved to be worn on thongs as ornaments) undoubtedly made themselves clothing, cared for disabled relatives and (at least sometimes) buried their dead with aparent reverence.
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Post by nockwasright on Nov 28, 2005 10:51:06 GMT -5
Neanderthals are not considered by present anthropologysts inferior (less intelligent) than homo sapiens. Some flavour of Neanderthal imho in two Italians, central and northern Italy.
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