Post by mmmkay on Oct 22, 2005 20:35:46 GMT -5
As part of my penchant for finding contriversial issues and posting them here, I thought I would re-post a most relevant refutation given by a wiki contributor who calls himself "Roy Lee" in regards to Dienekes's recent refutation of the "sub-saharan origin of the greeks" study.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Roylee#Afrocentric_bias
(you have to cut and paste to get original link)
the original study: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract
Here's what he has to say regarding:
Apparently, as "roy lee" would have it, Dienekes' main criticisms were not so much leveled at the study's results as its use of "HLA alleles" to arrive at them. Another point he makes is that dienekes is actually refering to another study altogother to which he quotes the criticisms leveled at it.
He also goes on to say this:
He then goes on to quote the numerous studies done in regards to using HLA alleles to arrive at population (race) specific results.
I don't know exactly whether or not this guy is from the "march of the titans" crowd, but is apparent that he is very perceptive, and interestingly it could stimulate a new discussion for the study atleast on pontikos' home turf.
Also of interest is the fact that the study mentions "pharonic egypt" in regards to a historical displacement or immigration of sub-saharan africans. This would not only be the corroborative genetic evidence that would lend support to theories regarding an egyptian colonisation of greece, but that the colonists themselves were "black". Ofcourse everyone generally agrees the egyptians were not a homogenous people, the antiquity of the colonisation would mean that they were more or less "black" in earlier times.
Boy would that turn the would upside down would'nt you say! Though I am mostly non-partial myself, I do lean in favor of the afrocentrists in regards to this, but I try to be as scientific and neutral as possible, I am open to all outcomes. I don't have a "collective race complex", where I view the accomplishments of my forbears as my own simply because they look like me.
Discuss.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Roylee#Afrocentric_bias
(you have to cut and paste to get original link)
the original study: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract
Here's what he has to say regarding:
Regarding comments on the study by Spanish geneticist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, which showed that a large number of Greek HLA alleles -- those genes which are known to determine resistance to disease -- cluster with Ethiopians and sub-Saharan Africans, it is important to note that the Arnaiz paper which deals with Macedonia and Greece is called "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" and published in the magazine Tissue Antigens February 2001, vol. 57, no. 2, pp. 118-127, while the article from which Pontikos has extracted his quote refers to a completely separate article which appeared in Nature magazine, dealing with a debate about how Jews and Palestinians are closely related. The quote Pontikos is using does not even refer to the Greek-Macedonian study, but instead another one dealing with genetic differences between Palestinians and Jews. It is therefore nothing less than a deliberate misrepresentation to project personal criticism of a report comparing Jews and Palestinians onto a separate report comparing Greeks and Macedonians
Apparently, as "roy lee" would have it, Dienekes' main criticisms were not so much leveled at the study's results as its use of "HLA alleles" to arrive at them. Another point he makes is that dienekes is actually refering to another study altogother to which he quotes the criticisms leveled at it.
He also goes on to say this:
* Arnaiz-Villena has published a huge number of scientific articles, all dealing with HLA genes and their ability to track population. Only one of the several hundred papers published bearing his name has been "retracted" by the scienitific community (as you may find noted at the bottom of the web page linked here). HLA alleles are race specific. Central to Pontikos' criticism of Arnaiz is the assertion that HLA Alleles are not race specific. Unfortunately for Pontikos, they are, and the scientific evidence for this is overwhelming. See bottom of web page: [4].
In summary: Pontikos' argument is intellectually twisted, leading many readers such as yourself to wrong conclusions. PubMed already knows about his criticisms, and they already recognize the deception. Unfortunately, many are still falling victim to the distortion. Sincerely, Roylee
In summary: Pontikos' argument is intellectually twisted, leading many readers such as yourself to wrong conclusions. PubMed already knows about his criticisms, and they already recognize the deception. Unfortunately, many are still falling victim to the distortion. Sincerely, Roylee
He then goes on to quote the numerous studies done in regards to using HLA alleles to arrive at population (race) specific results.
* The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in many papers and in all the subsequent international workshops since the First International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1970).
* HLA gene frequencies correlates with geographically related populations; the existence or absence of gene flow among neighbours may be assessed with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances. (sources: Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32; and Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820).
* The HLA system has been shown to be very polymorphic, able to be compared among ethnic groups and useful to distinguish populations (HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259-68).
* Scientific articles citing HLA genes as useful forensic to track populations:
Imanishi T, Wakisaka A, Gojobori T. Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32.
Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820.
Izaabel H, Garchon HJ, Caillat-Zucman S et al. HLA class II DNA polyhiorphism in a Moroccan population from the Souss, Agadir area, Tissue Antigens 1998:51: 106-10.
Arguello R, Avakian H, Goldman JM, Madrigaij A. A novel method for simultaneous high resolution identification of HLA-A, HLA-B, and HLA-Cw alleles, Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1996:93:10961-5.
Kimura A, Sasazuki T. Eleventh International Histocompatibility Workshop reference protocol for the HLA-DNA typing technique, in Tauji K, Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 397-419.
Bignon JD, Fernandez-Vif MA. Protocols of the 12th International Histocompatibiity Workshop for typing of HLA class II alleles by DNA amplification by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and hybridization with sequence-specific oligonucleotide probes (SSOP), in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol I. Paris: EDK, 1997: 584-95.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Estimation of allele and ha frequencies for HLA and complement loci, in Tsuji K Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 76-9.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Allele and haplotype frequencies for HLA and complement loci in various ethnic groups, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992:1065-220.
Mehra MC, Rajalingam R, Kanga U et al. Genetic diversity of HLA in the populations of India, Sri Lanka and Iran, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 314-20.
Roitberg-Tambur A, Witt CS, Friedmann A et al. Comparative analysis of HLA polymorphism at the serologic and molecular level in Moroccan and Ashkenazi Jews, Tissue Antigens 1995: 46: 104-10.
Martinez-Laso J, Gazit E, Gómez-Casado E et al. HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: comparison with other Mediterraneans, Tissue Antigens 1996: 47:63-71.
Degas L Dausset J. Human migrations and linkage disequilibrium of HLA system, Immunogenetics 1974: 1: 195—210.
* HLA gene frequencies correlates with geographically related populations; the existence or absence of gene flow among neighbours may be assessed with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances. (sources: Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32; and Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820).
* The HLA system has been shown to be very polymorphic, able to be compared among ethnic groups and useful to distinguish populations (HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259-68).
* Scientific articles citing HLA genes as useful forensic to track populations:
Imanishi T, Wakisaka A, Gojobori T. Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32.
Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820.
Izaabel H, Garchon HJ, Caillat-Zucman S et al. HLA class II DNA polyhiorphism in a Moroccan population from the Souss, Agadir area, Tissue Antigens 1998:51: 106-10.
Arguello R, Avakian H, Goldman JM, Madrigaij A. A novel method for simultaneous high resolution identification of HLA-A, HLA-B, and HLA-Cw alleles, Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1996:93:10961-5.
Kimura A, Sasazuki T. Eleventh International Histocompatibility Workshop reference protocol for the HLA-DNA typing technique, in Tauji K, Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 397-419.
Bignon JD, Fernandez-Vif MA. Protocols of the 12th International Histocompatibiity Workshop for typing of HLA class II alleles by DNA amplification by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and hybridization with sequence-specific oligonucleotide probes (SSOP), in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol I. Paris: EDK, 1997: 584-95.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Estimation of allele and ha frequencies for HLA and complement loci, in Tsuji K Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 76-9.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Allele and haplotype frequencies for HLA and complement loci in various ethnic groups, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992:1065-220.
Mehra MC, Rajalingam R, Kanga U et al. Genetic diversity of HLA in the populations of India, Sri Lanka and Iran, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 314-20.
Roitberg-Tambur A, Witt CS, Friedmann A et al. Comparative analysis of HLA polymorphism at the serologic and molecular level in Moroccan and Ashkenazi Jews, Tissue Antigens 1995: 46: 104-10.
Martinez-Laso J, Gazit E, Gómez-Casado E et al. HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: comparison with other Mediterraneans, Tissue Antigens 1996: 47:63-71.
Degas L Dausset J. Human migrations and linkage disequilibrium of HLA system, Immunogenetics 1974: 1: 195—210.
I don't know exactly whether or not this guy is from the "march of the titans" crowd, but is apparent that he is very perceptive, and interestingly it could stimulate a new discussion for the study atleast on pontikos' home turf.
Also of interest is the fact that the study mentions "pharonic egypt" in regards to a historical displacement or immigration of sub-saharan africans. This would not only be the corroborative genetic evidence that would lend support to theories regarding an egyptian colonisation of greece, but that the colonists themselves were "black". Ofcourse everyone generally agrees the egyptians were not a homogenous people, the antiquity of the colonisation would mean that they were more or less "black" in earlier times.
Boy would that turn the would upside down would'nt you say! Though I am mostly non-partial myself, I do lean in favor of the afrocentrists in regards to this, but I try to be as scientific and neutral as possible, I am open to all outcomes. I don't have a "collective race complex", where I view the accomplishments of my forbears as my own simply because they look like me.
Discuss.
