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Post by joton on Mar 25, 2005 23:28:10 GMT -5
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 26, 2005 0:43:46 GMT -5
There were probably some ancient Egyptians that looked like the Rock or Vin Diesel, but I don't think Tiger Woods would have fit in.
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Post by joton on Mar 26, 2005 1:27:28 GMT -5
why not?
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Post by mike2 on Mar 26, 2005 1:45:25 GMT -5
He's too negroid. And yet... too Mongoloid. Tiger's weird.
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Post by joton on Mar 26, 2005 2:08:57 GMT -5
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 26, 2005 2:23:24 GMT -5
why not? yeah, like Mike said, he's too Negroid. The Egyptians were a Caucasoid people. They seem to have had quasi-Mongoloid eyes, but I don't think that's indicative of relations with Mongoloid people. And the Rock wouldn't look too Egyptian with a fro, stick to his normal self.
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Post by joton on Mar 26, 2005 2:34:45 GMT -5
is it just me or do i sense a double standard. j/k
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 26, 2005 3:30:28 GMT -5
is it just me or do i sense a double standard. j/k where do you see a double standard??
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Post by mike2 on Mar 26, 2005 3:40:08 GMT -5
There isn't a double standard. If bald, Vin and the Rock could easily fit into Egypt. Both are half-black, but they look similar enough to pass for Egyptians when they don't grow their hair out because their non-negroid features predominate. Vin looks quite Mediterranean and the Rock's Samoan blood gives him a look brunet Med, look, as well. The Rock even got to play an Akkadian.
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Post by topdog on Mar 26, 2005 8:23:35 GMT -5
Ethiopian and Egyptian populations have high haplogroup M1 frequencies. Some people have suggested that M1 is Negroid, but my personal opinion is that the contrary since the founders of M1 back migrated to Africa 12000 years ago. Even though M1 has been assigned an African origin, I think it has must have affinities with either West Eurasian (Caucasian), East Eurasian (mongoloids) or South Asian (veddoid) groupings. Because of the above I am inclined to believe that M1 is Veddoid, and similar to the typical Indian or Pakistani. People with M1 frequency, do show Veddoid characteristics, and this isn’t me, since the ancients have commented that Egyptians resemble North Indians. Also the skulls forms Upper Egypt are in an intermediate between the South Asian skull and the ones from Lower Egypt. If this is true then the original Upper Egyptians were similar to South Asians, the Lower Egyptians were similar to Middle easterners, and over the years the two cultures fused, with the Middle Eastern (Caucasian) type becoming more prominent, due to them being indigenous. Later a Negroid Element would enter. In conclusion, my theory is that Egypt and Ethiopia are melting pots for Caucasian South Asian and Negroid types, white Negroid coming later after the two. Saying this, however, I don’t think there were any cultural ties to South Asians, just genetic ties. What do you guys think About Haplogroup M1, your free to say anything, It’s curtail since M1 is a bit of an outlier, in that it is unique in Africa. Feel free to kill my theory, I wouldn’t mind. I'm going to tell you that you're incorrect, M1 is indeed East African in origin and there is no evidence that Indians or 'Veddoids' ever migrated into Africa bringing this haplotype. The most recent published information does indeed kill your theory: Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Metspalu2004.pdfAs we can see, M1 isn't even found in South Asian populations, thus there is no reason to postulate and relationship between 'Veddoids', Ethiopians, and Upper Egyptians.
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Post by kir on Mar 26, 2005 12:35:57 GMT -5
@topdog I admit, that if M1 actually originated in east Africa and never left then my theory that veddoid=M1 would be incorrect, but we don’t know this for sure. There are 2 scenarios. 1) M1 arose in East Africa 2) M1 arose in South West Asia. “Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. I support scenario two, because there are many branches of branches in India like M2, M3, M4, M6, M30, M5, M25…, and there are still undiscovered ones. Around the Middle East, as well as the caucus, and along the Arabian coast, there are examples of M1 in the population, which could be a sign of back migration. If M1 really did arise in East Africa, then it should have penetrated more into subsaharh populations, but it is only found in North African populations, like Egypt and Ethiopia. If this linage originated in India, it’s possible that the linage died out before it could expand. And if this linage originated away form India, it’s possible that it only expanded west, never reaching India. On average the Indian M show time depths of around 30,000 years, and is around the same age as the North African M1. M is found in 60%-80 of the Indian population, and is specific to the region. M is veddoid. www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26/figure/F1
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Post by topdog on Mar 26, 2005 13:42:06 GMT -5
@topdog I admit, that if M1 actually originated in east Africa and never left then my theory that veddoid=M1 would be incorrect, but we don’t know this for sure. There are 2 scenarios. 1) M1 arose in East Africa 2) M1 arose in South West Asia. “Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. I support scenario two, because there are many branches of branches in India like M2, M3, M4, M6, M30, M5, M25…, and there are still undiscovered ones. Around the Middle East, as well as the caucus, and along the Arabian coast, there are examples of M1 in the population, which could be a sign of back migration. If M1 really did arise in East Africa, then it should have penetrated more into subsaharh populations, but it is only found in North African populations, like Egypt and Ethiopia. If this linage originated in India, it’s possible that the linage died out before it could expand. And if this linage originated away form India, it’s possible that it only expanded west, never reaching India. On average the Indian M show time depths of around 30,000 years, and is around the same age as the North African M1. M is found in 60%-80 of the Indian population, and is specific to the region. M is veddoid. www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26/figure/F1You can make the same case for E3b gamma which is found in very high frequencies in East Africa[85% in Somali males] but is otherwise absent in central and West African populations, does that mean that E3b gamma came into East Africa via a back-migration from the Middle East? No. The same for M1, it is found at its highest frquencies in East Africa and is geographically structured there; M1 in southwest Asia follows no particular pattern. "M is veddoid." M isn't Veddoid, it is found in Ethiopia, Andaman Islanders, Australoids and even Chinese and expanded from Africa in the first ROA migrations, it isn't specific to anyone race. According to the most recent published information, haplogroup is drived from superhaplogroup L3, which arose in Africa. Haplogroups M and N left Africa, there were no 'Veddoids' at that time.
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Post by kir on Mar 26, 2005 14:46:31 GMT -5
I understand that there are regional specific branches of N and M. After humans left Africa L3 branched into M and N varieties. There are mongoloid specific M like C and D. And there are ones form Oceania like Q. What I was talking about was the Indian specific variety. After leaving Africa about 70,000 years ago, the M types evolved into their veddoid forms, in South and Southwest Asia. Then about 12,000 ybp M1 stayed off form the Indian Specific M and back migrated to Ethiopia. Also let’s keep with Mtdna Markers, they are a better indicator of long term patterns. Also I was surprised with Australian mtdna, It has about 90% N!, and 10%M. Australian specific M and N of course. Check out the slides what do you think of it? It shows M1 back migrating form Asia It’s his view, but he’s not alone in believing the back migration www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/genetics/mtDNAworld/one.html
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Post by joton on Mar 26, 2005 14:53:50 GMT -5
how would you classify this fellow. Akhenaten p.s is it me or do the chin look wierd.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 26, 2005 15:03:13 GMT -5
how would you classify this fellow. Akhenaten I don't know. Let me see his face. My god, it's not like he was even a good representation of the Egyptian population. You've seen reconstructions of Ramesses II and Aumn-her Khepeshef, the ONLY two reconstructions supervised and approved by Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities. The AEs looked like them.
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