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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 2, 2006 23:05:30 GMT -5
I read in another thread that people preferred the appearance of a dark-featured woman over a light-featured woman in an Italian family. They thought that the former better represented what Italians should look like. I have noticed this same kind of thinking on several occasions. Some Americans think that almost all Scandinavians have blonde hair and blue eyes. They equate red hair with Irish ancestry, and they question your Irish ancestry if you have dark features. Of course, the reverse applies to people with Italian ancestry in that they think that almost all Italian Americans should look like Sicilians. I'll avoid mentioning their beliefs about Portuguese and Spanish people for the sake of peace (j/k). I bet that some of you have noticed other examples of this phenomenon.
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Post by buddy on Jan 3, 2006 0:09:50 GMT -5
You're absolutely right Jack. Red hair among the Irish stands at a mere 4% if I remember correctly. The Irish are mostly a light to medium brown-haired people. The Scottish have higher incidences of red hair, and even for the Scots, only about 10% are redheads.
About Italians, since most immigrants to America came from Sicily or other southern regions such as Calabria and Campania, many Americans think that it's impossible to have blond/lt. brown hair and light eyes. Not only is this quite common in northern Italy, it's also found more often than commonly thought among Sicilians and other S. Italians. I've known plenty of fair-skinned, green-eyed, light brown-haired S. Italians.
In regard to Scandinavians, isn't it true that many Norwegians and Danes have dark hair (more so than Swedes)?
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Jan 3, 2006 0:12:43 GMT -5
Well, stereotypes are born out of both averages and novelties.
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Jan 3, 2006 0:16:29 GMT -5
I remember somebody posted a study that said only 6% of Sicilians have both light hair and light eyes though the percentage may be slightly higher if you count light eyed people with dark hair like buddy who himself has dark hair and light eyes.
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Post by wendland on Jan 3, 2006 0:16:45 GMT -5
4% and 10% (I read that it was 14% for Scotland, and suspect it may be a bit higher than 4% for Ireland-but this isn't the point) is still high compared to other populations, that led to the stereotype of red hair. If 1 in 8 people you see has red hair, maybe you start to think "everyone has red hair". It's the same with blonde, 1 in 4 has blond hair (25% of pop) and soon you think everyone has it-- some how it makes a big impression. Then, human beings are very propensive to thinking in stereotypes, and EXAGERATING... Just like when old people talk about the weather: it was hotter, colder, rainier, etc... (when statistics show no real difference).
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Post by buddy on Jan 3, 2006 0:46:57 GMT -5
^Yes that's true, red hair is that much rarer in any other part of the world, which would make an outsider notice the trait that looks different, or in other words stick out the most.
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Post by buddy on Jan 3, 2006 0:55:22 GMT -5
I remember somebody posted a study that said only 6% of Sicilians have both light hair and light eyes though the percentage may be slightly higher if you count light eyed people with dark hair like buddy who himself has dark hair and light eyes. Well, part of the reason why I have lighter eyes is because of my northern/central European mother's ancestry, but by no means would I stick out in Sicily based on my overall appearance. Also, I agree that 6% does sound very low. Factoring in dark-haired light-eyed Sicilians, the total number of light-eyed Sicilians probably rises to roughly 15-20%. I'd definitely say that light hair is rarer than light eyes. |
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Post by tonynatuzzi on Jan 3, 2006 1:07:25 GMT -5
Percentage wise Ireland probably has the highest number of the dark hair and light eye combo.I have also see many French and Russians with the very dark hair and very light eyes combination.
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Post by stella22 on Jan 3, 2006 12:48:29 GMT -5
People over generalize in order to make simple that which is highly complex. It is easier on the mind to think that all Irish are redheads and all Italians are dark haired.
At Dodona, we tend to do both. We oscillate between over generalizing and conversely, over focusing on all the exceptions. Either extreme ignores the reality.
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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 3, 2006 20:07:10 GMT -5
You're absolutely right Jack. Red hair among the Irish stands at a mere 4% if I remember correctly. The Irish are mostly a light to medium brown-haired people. The Scottish have higher incidences of red hair, and even for the Scots, only about 10% are redheads. About Italians, since most immigrants to America came from Sicily or other southern regions such as Calabria and Campania, many Americans think that it's impossible to have blond/lt. brown hair and light eyes. Not only is this quite common in northern Italy, it's also found more often than commonly thought among Sicilians and other S. Italians. I've known plenty of fair-skinned, green-eyed, light brown-haired S. Italians. In regard to Scandinavians, isn't it true that many Norwegians and Danes have dark hair (more so than Swedes)? I've noticed that the red hair stereotype persists in American culture. Just look at the cartoons and mascots representing the Irish. I think that non-Celtic countries have had populations of red-haired people for ages. I dated a Mexican girl with red hair, but she probably had other ancestry. I thought about the large number of Sicilian Americans when I typed my post. I always thought of people like Al Pacino when I thought about Italians, although I dated an Italian girl with lighter features than mine. I didn't realize that many Italian people could have light hair and light eyes in the past. I was surprised to see people like Joe Montana. |
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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 3, 2006 20:09:09 GMT -5
Well, stereotypes are born out of both averages and novelties. That's true. That's why they think Americans are fat cowboy actors from New York City. |
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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 3, 2006 20:12:21 GMT -5
I remember somebody posted a study that said only 6% of Sicilians have both light hair and light eyes though the percentage may be slightly higher if you count light eyed people with dark hair like buddy who himself has dark hair and light eyes. I've known Italian people with both phenotypes. Some of them looked Sardinian or Sicilian. Some of them had lighter features than me. One girl thought that *I* was Italian because I fit in between the two phenotypes. |
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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 3, 2006 20:17:56 GMT -5
4% and 10% (I read that it was 14% for Scotland, and suspect it may be a bit higher than 4% for Ireland-but this isn't the point) is still high compared to other populations, that led to the stereotype of red hair. If 1 in 8 people you see has red hair, maybe you start to think "everyone has red hair". It's the same with blonde, 1 in 4 has blond hair (25% of pop) and soon you think everyone has it-- some how it makes a big impression. Then, human beings are very propensive to thinking in stereotypes, and EXAGERATING... Just like when old people talk about the weather: it was hotter, colder, rainier, etc... (when statistics show no real difference). It's safe to say that Ireland and Scotland have the highest percentages of people with red hair. I noticed that Ireland has people with all colors of hair. Maybe that reflects the migatory patterns over the years, although some theories about that seem a bit simplistic. My guess is that many Irish people with blonde hair are descended from Vikings. |
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Post by Jack Reed on Jan 3, 2006 20:24:00 GMT -5
People over generalize in order to make simple that which is highly complex. It is easier on the mind to think that all Irish are redheads and all Italians are dark haired. At Dodona, we tend to do both. We oscillate between over generalizing and conversely, over focusing on all the exceptions. Either extreme ignores the reality. That's a great point, Stella. We do that with everything else too. I think that's because we try to order and organize a complex world in a way that helps us understand it. A neuroscientist told me that he had to create his own system to remember the parts of the body. |
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Post by wendland on Jan 3, 2006 22:25:45 GMT -5
At one point I heard that red hair was the result of Viking influence in Ireland and Scotland. Now, I'm sure it's NOT the case--especially if the center of the red hair "phenomenon" is the British Isles, especially the western part.
There was a study, I think it was on the BBC (not sure now), looking for the genetic input of Vikings in the British Isles. It seems to have been quite neglibible in Ireland, and also pretty low in Scotland, with the exception of Orkneys, Shettland, and Outer Hebrides. It was also higher around York in England. They were basically tracing the prominence of the R1b and I haplotypes-- and just tracing the presence of these haplotypes isn't a perfect was to look for the heritage of Vikings, though it says something (more I would be expected).
So, blond hair among Irish, and Scottish is probably not the result of Vikings, there may be a local, autochthonous occurrance of it-- though it's not the majority. Just as blond hair exists in all caucasoid populations, only in many in very low occurrances-- which makes us humans always wonder about the past incursions of "blond invaders."
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