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Post by Educate Me on Jun 12, 2005 16:14:38 GMT -5
An article on gypsies, it is interesting how I live in Argentina and people of eastern europe have the same stereotype of gypsies as people in south america.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 12, 2005 17:44:13 GMT -5
there where many jusitications for "hating" the jews and all of them came from religous leaders. Don't you realize this is a bigoted thing to say? You're telling me there was no secular European nobility who encouraged/participated in anti-Jewish acts for their own, non-religious reasons? No competitions with the rising Christian mercantile class over economic power? Read a book! its not bigoted its just the facts.no matter how the leaders justified there reasons (which was money and other things.) the point is once the leaders justified it the people would start up myths which would lead to anti semitism and the church remanined quite. ""Judeophobia," however, appears in nearly every essay as a basic reason for the Church's decision to launch the Inquisition." "Apparently the underlying motive for persecuting the conversos was economic envy, quickly transformed into ideological accusations" "The analysis of the texts of the two edicts offers an interesting consideration: from one persecution to the next, a stereotype of the converso was formed. From the beginning, the converso was perceived as an element of potential danger, above all economic – wealth permitted him a freedom of action and impunity which obviously provokes fear in local merchants, a fear expressed in the first edict...Very quickly however, this danger finds justification in reasons of a moral order. In the 1550 edict, the conversos in fact become "unfaithful people, without religion and strong enemies of the Lord God..." "According to Bernard Vincent, author of The Inquisition and Islam, the early years of the Inquisition focused on conversos, while in following years other categories of heretics were added to the list of the persecuted. He says the Inquisition was a bit less hard on new Christians of Muslim origin because Islam represented a power not altogether conquered, and "the inquisitors were aware that they might one day find themselves in the shoes of those under trial" www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087787669010&apage=1www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_anti-Semitismnote i used two sources that are jewish. btw this "You're telling me there was no secular European nobility who encouraged/participated in anti-Jewish acts for their own, non-religious reasons? No competitions with the rising Christian mercantile class over economic power? Read a book!" dude,we are talking about why people hate the jews and then the roots.I never said anything about secular european nobitity. the point is the church and its leaders did wrong.its not perfect nothing is!
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Post by Melnorme on Jun 12, 2005 17:55:16 GMT -5
the point is the church and its leaders did wrong.its not perfect nothing is! What does that have to do with anything? My argument with you is that you seem to believe in Christianity as the ultimate, core source of antisemitism. I can't believe that I have to convince you that it ain't so.
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Post by nockwasright on Jun 12, 2005 17:57:57 GMT -5
Then why did you automatically blame Christianity as the root cause of it? because modern times the root of anti semitism is based on religion. As Mel noted this is not true. Nazism was a pagan movement, with its own made up religion. The Jew was the anthitesis to the German in the Nazi philosophy. The German in Nazi mithology was rooted in his territory and mistically attached to it. Was spiritual and collectivist. Was anti capitalist. The Jew was instead urbanised, rootless, capitalistic, materialist, individualist. This of course in a very shallow systesis of Nazi's sociology (for better reference see Mosse). The main reasons for Jew persecutions, imo, are their economic role as middle men, envy for their abilities and success, and their being made conspiquous by not mixing. The role of the middle men is difficult to understand for the laymen. All the minorities that specialised in the middle men role suffered or are suffering persecution guided by the ignorant creed that they steal, or their richness in not earned, as can not be directly identified in the production of goods (Chinese middleman minorities are persecuted now, for the same reasons). Envy and hate for the different always have their wheight obviously. In the case of Jews, due to their extraordinary successes, envy plays a major role. Jews have not being hated by, say, hindus or confucians because they do not live in the countries were this religions are followed. Christian European, pagan Germans, atheist Communists and Muslims expressed hate for the Jews. So religion can not matter.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 12, 2005 19:52:12 GMT -5
the point is the church and its leaders did wrong.its not perfect nothing is! What does that have to do with anything? My argument with you is that you seem to believe in Christianity as the ultimate, core source of antisemitism. I can't believe that I have to convince you that it ain't so. Yes it was part of it and the justification of such was the church.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 12, 2005 20:10:53 GMT -5
because modern times the root of anti semitism is based on religion. As Mel noted this is not true. Nazism was a pagan movement, with its own made up religion. The Jew was the anthitesis to the German in the Nazi philosophy. The German in Nazi mithology was rooted in his territory and mistically attached to it. Was spiritual and collectivist. Was anti capitalist. The Jew was instead urbanised, rootless, capitalistic, materialist, individualist. This of course in a very shallow systesis of Nazi's sociology (for better reference see Mosse). The main reasons for Jew persecutions, imo, are their economic role as middle men, envy for their abilities and success, and their being made conspiquous by not mixing. The role of the middle men is difficult to understand for the laymen. All the minorities that specialised in the middle men role suffered or are suffering persecution guided by the ignorant creed that they steal, or their richness in not earned, as can not be directly identified in the production of goods (Chinese middleman minorities are persecuted now, for the same reasons). Envy and hate for the different always have their wheight obviously. In the case of Jews, due to their extraordinary successes, envy plays a major role. Jews have not being hated by, say, hindus or confucians because they do not live in the countries were this religions are followed. Christian European, pagan Germans, atheist Communists and Muslims expressed hate for the Jews. So religion can not matter. nock i dont disagree .i never mentioned nazi's but "In the 1930s Nazi Germany help the Lutheran church and other Christian churches publicise Martin Luther's teachings; his recommendations were carried out on every Jew in Germany and its occupied lands. " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_anti-Semitismwww.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=pius
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 12, 2005 20:11:24 GMT -5
btw mel what book should i read?
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 12, 2005 20:13:39 GMT -5
is this bigoted? During the past 1800 years, many Christians have had anti-Jewish attitudes. Some historians and many Jews hold that for most of its history, most of Christianity was openly anti-Semitic and that the severity, type and extent of this anti-Semitism have varied much over time; the earliest form was theological anti-Judaism.
It is quite possible, however, that some apparently anti-Jewish ideas present among Christians are not a result of specific anti-Jewish Biblical ideals, but instead a manifestation of Christian rejection of other religions as alternative ways to God. In this sense, Christianity owes a debt of gratitude for the past, yet asserts that the time of Judaism is past, therefore invalidating Judaism as a viable means of salvation.
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geo
Full Member
hellene
Posts: 135
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Post by geo on Jun 13, 2005 13:36:55 GMT -5
Wow, that was a lot to say. Maybe I should be some kind of a history professor. I'm only 18, after all. Plenty of time to make up my mind about that. Common language is not the only component of ethnos, as ethnos is not only a matter of linguistics! Community in 'blood' must also exist, along with community in 'religion' (the way people understand cosmos) and 'ethics' (everyday practices etc.) Careful, when we say 'common' we do not mean 'the same'!
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Post by guntank on Jun 14, 2005 19:50:48 GMT -5
I'd say blacks are probably the most universally hated in the world, including asian countries, even though they didn't invade asia.
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 14, 2005 22:38:52 GMT -5
Melnorme is right. Anti-Jewish feeling predates Christianity--therefore Christianity cannot be the cause of it. To believe the Jews' own Bible, they were despised in Egypt several millennia before Christianity. Then in Babylon. Then, when Alexander the Great took over the Middle East, the Jews sided with the losing Persian empire--making them at once perceived as "untrustworthy" by the Europeans, who dwelt on numerous examples of their "treachery". Then there's the famous example of Rome and its loss of patience with the Jews--and subsequent persecution of them.
All of these examples predate Christianity. So sorry, guys--sorry to burst the myth. Even today 99% of all antisemites are stirred to depths of suspicion and contempt not by the Jewish people's religion but by what is seen as political influence that is out of all proportion with their numbers in society. In the United States, they resent Israel's influence in Washington; in Russia, they dwell upon the mostly-Jewish "robber-barons" who have plundered Russian wealth, had mob-style executions for turf-control and then fled to Israel for protection when the government finally started calling them to account for their crimes; in the Middle East, they resent the apartheid state of Israel and its treatment of indigenous populations, etc. All of these issues have zero to do with religion. It is more a social phenomenon grounded in the unique role Jews have always played in their host countries. As the eternal minority, they have traditionally--through their unique place in the history of banking and international finance--amassed wealth and power, but--seeing themselves as outside the nations they live in--they are perceived as being something less than "loyal" when it comes to the countries they reside in. It can be imagined how the Spaniards felt in their war against the Muslims when Jews, living inside Christian cities, threw open the gates to the invaders, who subsequently slaughtered the Christians. This happened time and again. [Understandably the Jews had a greater kinship at the time with the Muslims with whom they entered Spain, but their betrayal of their host-population was felt keenly. And when Spain finally expelled the Muslims, it sent the Jews packing with them.] It was a replay of what happened centuries before when Greece took over the Middle East and the Jews sided with the losing Persian empire. And this pattern is repeated time and again in their history. Examples like the ones mentioned have typically added to the unpopularity of Jews, and made their host-populations wary of them. Whether true or exaggerated, they are furthermore perceived--and have been percerived since Biblical times--as nepotistic, self-serving and a rogue-element in countries when at war with other nations. Even the British used Jews during World War I to spy against the nations they lived in. To be fair to the Jews, Britain's technique was not isolated to Jews. They used countless ethnic minorities in countries, plied them with promises of rewards and got them to act as terrorists inside the nations they live in--the most famous example is of Kurds in the Ottoman Empire. Jews and Kurds had ambitions for founding their own countries (and Britain made them promises). It speaks volumes about Britain's character that they used these ethnic minorities and then left them out to dry afterward--resulting in the genocide against Armenians and Kurds in Turkey and the backlash against Jews in Germany before World War II. It's like a dog beat with a newspaper associating the abuse not with its owner but with the paper. Likewise, people react with hatred and vengeance against the tools of British imperialism--allowing the real culprits [the servants of empire] to get away with its evils while taking their anger out on the manipulated ethnic minorities.
P.S.--The US most recently used the Kurds against Iraq in the same way. It's an age-old technique. Conquering empires love minority groups in the countries they plan to invade. For instance, the first two groups Communists appealed to in America in their bid for conquest were Jews and blacks. Sad that some things never change--and people are condemned to repeat history endlessly.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 15, 2005 9:38:46 GMT -5
Melnorme is right. Anti-Jewish feeling predates Christianity--therefore Christianity cannot be the cause of it. To believe the Jews' own Bible, they were despised in Egypt several millennia before Christianity. Then in Babylon. Then, when Alexander the Great took over the Middle East, the Jews sided with the losing Persian empire--making them at once perceived as "untrustworthy" by the Europeans, who dwelt on numerous examples of their "treachery". Then there's the famous example of Rome and its loss of patience with the Jews--and subsequent persecution of them. All of these examples predate Christianity. So sorry, guys--sorry to burst the myth. Even today 99% of all antisemites are stirred to depths of suspicion and contempt not by the Jewish people's religion but by what is seen as political influence that is out of all proportion with their numbers in society. In the United States, they resent Israel's influence in Washington; in Russia, they dwell upon the mostly-Jewish "robber-barons" who have plundered Russian wealth, had mob-style executions for turf-control and then fled to Israel for protection when the government finally started calling them to account for their crimes; in the Middle East, they resent the apartheid state of Israel and its treatment of indigenous populations, etc. All of these issues have zero to do with religion. It is more a social phenomenon grounded in the unique role Jews have always played in their host countries. As the eternal minority, they have traditionally--through their unique place in the history of banking and international finance--amassed wealth and power, but--seeing themselves as outside the nations they live in--they are perceived as being something less than "loyal" when it comes to the countries they reside in. It can be imagined how the Spaniards felt in their war against the Muslims when Jews, living inside Christian cities, threw open the gates to the invaders, who subsequently slaughtered the Christians. This happened time and again. [Understandably the Jews had a greater kinship at the time with the Muslims with whom they entered Spain, but their betrayal of their host-population was felt keenly. And when Spain finally expelled the Muslims, it sent the Jews packing with them.] It was a replay of what happened centuries before when Greece took over the Middle East and the Jews sided with the losing Persian empire. And this pattern is repeated time and again in their history. Examples like the ones mentioned have typically added to the unpopularity of Jews, and made their host-populations wary of them. Whether true or exaggerated, they are furthermore perceived--and have been percerived since Biblical times--as nepotistic, self-serving and a rogue-element in countries when at war with other nations. Even the British used Jews during World War I to spy against the nations they lived in. To be fair to the Jews, Britain's technique was not isolated to Jews. They used countless ethnic minorities in countries, plied them with promises of rewards and got them to act as terrorists inside the nations they live in--the most famous example is of Kurds in the Ottoman Empire. Jews and Kurds had ambitions for founding their own countries (and Britain made them promises). It speaks volumes about Britain's character that they used these ethnic minorities and then left them out to dry afterward--resulting in the genocide against Armenians and Kurds in Turkey and the backlash against Jews in Germany before World War II. It's like a dog beat with a newspaper associating the abuse not with its owner but with the paper. Likewise, people react with hatred and vengeance against the tools of British imperialism--allowing the real culprits [the servants of empire] to get away with its evils while taking their anger out on the manipulated ethnic minorities. P.S.--The US most recently used the Kurds against Iraq in the same way. It's an age-old technique. Conquering empires love minority groups in the countries they plan to invade. For instance, the first two groups Communists appealed to in America in their bid for conquest were Jews and blacks. Sad that some things never change--and people are condemned to repeat history endlessly. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_anti-Semitism
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Post by Melnorme on Jun 15, 2005 10:36:22 GMT -5
Amadis, stop replying with Wikipedia URLs, it's annoying.
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Post by mike2 on Jun 15, 2005 10:43:20 GMT -5
Indeed, anti-Jewish mentalities predates the founding of the Christian church by a long shot.
It would be silly to say that Christianity is at the root of anti-Jewishness. Christ was a Jew. The apostles were Jews. The founders of the early Christian church were Jews.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 15, 2005 11:07:25 GMT -5
Indeed, anti-Jewish mentalities predates the founding of the Christian church by a long shot. It would be silly to say that Christianity is at the root of anti-Jewishness. Christ was a Jew. The apostles were Jews. The founders of the early Christian church were Jews. Mike,if you follow the links i have posted you will see what im talking about.obvisuly its complex but without any doubts the church has had the biggest impact to it.i am catholic and i know the church has done wrong i can admit that there is no shame.
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