More on the Melungeons

[recluse]

In surfing the web for information on this mysterious group, I found quite a few family photo sites. The phenotype evidence isn't that compelling. Most of the photos could be the usual kind of caucasoid that you'd expect from western and central Europe. Also expected are the mulattoes and mestizos who have a traditional interest in passing themselves off as exotic whites. But after that, there are still these Indic-looking people who are harder to explain. Gypsies? And what are they doing in the Ohio river valley?

[eufrenio]

I´ve read quite a bit on the subject (http://www.melungeons.com and other places), and from the information I´ve gleaned, the origin of the Melungeons is still confusing. The main components posited are: East-Mediterranean (Turkish, Jewish), "Barbary" Coast (North-African), Scotch-Irish, Amerindian, Black, sometimes Portuguese and even Gipsy.

Whatever their ultimate origin, the group seems to have functioned in the latter centuries as a basket dump for mixed-race individuals neither assimilable in the Black or White groups, neither Indian in culture.

Recluse, what is your opinion on their origins?

A good summary can be found here:
www.melungeons.com/articles/statemenkennedydec02.htm

[buddyrydell]

The story of the Melungeons is simply fascinating to me. It truly challenges the supposed ethnic/racial homogeneity of the Appalachian South and suggests that perhaps millions of whites who always thought they were just English or Scotch-Irish may actually may have significant Native American or sub-Saharan African ancestry without even knowing about it.

[recluse]

Eufrenio,

I just read the Kennedy statement and unless I missed something, he seems to be saying that after some preliminary DNA testing, they still don't know much more than they knew before. Those darn Portugese gene markers refuse to show up.

Since Kennedy says that the Melungeons are more of a cultural group than a racial group anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If all the original Portugese and their descendants have died out, leaving only their contribution to the culture behind, no one is going to find anything in a DNA sample. This goes for any other group that the Melungeons claim. This has got to be one of the most undefined racial/ethnic groups ever. Eufrenio, buddyrydell and I could move to Virginia and proclaim "We're Melungeons." And I don't know how anyone could expose the fraud.

But Kennedy's preachy rhetoric reminded me about what all the fuss is about. Being a professional minority is a booming business these days and we Americans seem to have a bottomless pit of guilt about it and desire for atonement.

As to their origins, any of the speculations seems plausible enough. Runaway slaves, renegade Indians, escaped prisoners, and misfits of every race and ethnicity would have a good reason to try their luck on the frontier. I'm sure that your "basket dump" idea plays a big role in it.

[captainusa1]

I probably have Melungeon ancestry on both sides of my family. I never even heard about Melungeons before I read about them in a magazine. I think that they originated in northern Africa, southern Europe, western Asia, and Atlantis (kidding). I think that they mixed more with Mongoloids than with Negroids, but I think that their base was Mediterranean.

[captainusa1]

buddyrydell said:

The story of the Melungeons is simply fascinating to me. It truly challenges the supposed ethnic/racial homogeneity of the Appalachian South and suggests that perhaps millions of whites who always thought they were just English or Scotch-Irish may actually may have significant Native American or sub-Saharan African ancestry without even knowing about it.

The Appalachian region is different than the other regions of the South. The residents seem to have more Native American ancestry. They also have more German and Welsh ancestry than people whose ancestors settled in the lowland regions, although Thomas Jefferson had Welsh ancestry. There also was a significant number of Irish settlers in the region, although they have been ignored by the historians because of the higher number of Scots Irish settlers.

[captainusa1]

recluse said:

Eufrenio,

I just read the Kennedy statement and unless I missed something, he seems to be saying that after some preliminary DNA testing, they still don't know much more than they knew before. Those darn Portugese gene markers refuse to show up.

Since Kennedy says that the Melungeons are more of a cultural group than a racial group anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If all the original Portugese and their descendants have died out, leaving only their contribution to the culture behind, no one is going to find anything in a DNA sample. This goes for any other group that the Melungeons claim. This has got to be one of the most undefined racial/ethnic groups ever. Eufrenio, buddyrydell and I could move to Virginia and proclaim "We're Melungeons." And I don't know how anyone could expose the fraud.

But Kennedy's preachy rhetoric reminded me about what all the fuss is about. Being a professional minority is a booming business these days and we Americans seem to have a bottomless pit of guilt about it and desire for atonement.

As to their origins, any of the speculations seems plausible enough. Runaway slaves, renegade Indians, escaped prisoners, and misfits of every race and ethnicity would have a good reason to try their luck on the frontier. I'm sure that your "basket dump" idea plays a big role in it.

I know what you mean. I was on a Melungeon mailing list, and some of the people embraced the politically correct idea of victim groups. I thought that they should live in the here and now. It's good to remember atrocities like the Lynchburg Project, but it's best to live in the present.

[Ptolemy]

recluse said:

I see a hint of AmerIndian in this person.

Probably a Med/Native mix. Looks like a Mexican.

[Graeme]

He could be the result of negro/Amerindian/caucasoid cross. The people in those photos have wide spread eyes. I consider that a negro trait. The noses suggest negro also.

[buddyrydell]

In any case, it appears to me that people regarded as "Melungeons" would definitely stick out from what the average white U.S. southerner would look like. This of course would be due to alleged Native American, African, or Middle Eastern/North African ancestry.

Cap'n, I have a question for you. What are the most common physical types one would find among white southerners? Although I've visited the South a number of times, it's been quite awhile and as I'm not from there, I'd be interested in knowing. I assume British types are the most common, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[izabet]

A good friend of mine is from Florida and I suspect she has black ancestry. She is open to the idea and agrees that it's highly plausible. It's odd because she has blue/green eyes, black hair and very pale skin. She does have native american ancestry and some irish/french. She could very well be Melungeon.

[captainusa1]

buddyrydell said:

In any case, it appears to me that people regarded as "Melungeons" would definitely stick out from what the average white U.S. southerner would look like. This of course would be due to alleged Native American, African, or Middle Eastern/North African ancestry.

Cap'n, I have a question for you. What are the most common physical types one would find among white southerners? Although I've visited the South a number of times, it's been quite awhile and as I'm not from there, I'd be interested in knowing. I assume British types are the most common, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm more familiar with the border regions than with the southern regions. The people in the border regions look like generic Americans to me. They often have a combination of different European ancestries. My guess is that British and Irish are predominant, though. Many of the people in the border states have dark hair and dark eyes, and I think that *some* of this is due to Melungeon and/or Native American ancestry. There were quite a few interracial marriages during the frontier era. You sometimes see families in which one child will have dark features and another child will have light features. I read that this is often the result of having both European and Native American genes. Like you, I'm not too familiar with Dixie, which is different than Melungeon territory. My guess is that the people in Dixie are mostly English with some Scots Irish, but I'm excluding Appalachia and parts of Florida, Louisiana, and Texas. I've noticed a marked difference in the appearance of English women and Southern women of English descent. I'm not totally sure why this is. I'm sorry if this didn't answer your question.

[recluse]

Graeme said:

He could be the result of negro/Amerindian/caucasoid cross. The people in those photos have wide spread eyes. I consider that a negro trait. The noses suggest negro also.

Interesting about the eye set. If true, that might be a handy way of distinguishing white-black-reds (Cubans, possibly Melungeons, etc.) from North Africans and West Asians.

[recluse]

Ptolemy said:

I see a hint of AmerIndian in this person.

Probably a Med/Native mix. Looks like a Mexican.

I see your point. I had originally ruled that out on the basis of my ignorance about the phenotype of Amerindians in that area. I had just assumed that they would be more obviously mongoloid than the original people of Mexico, Guatemala, etc.

[buddyrydell]

Cap'n said:

I'm more familiar with the border regions than with the southern regions. The people in the border regions look like generic Americans to me. They often have a combination of different European ancestries. My guess is that British and Irish are predominant, though. Many of the people in the border states have dark hair and dark eyes, and I think that *some* of this is due to Melungeon and/or Native American ancestry. There were quite a few interracial marriages during the frontier era. You sometimes see families in which one child will have dark features and another child will have light features. I read that this is often the result of having both European and Native American genes. Like you, I'm not too familiar with Dixie, which is different than Melungeon territory. My guess is that the people in Dixie are mostly English with some Scots Irish, but I'm excluding Appalachia and parts of Florida, Louisiana, and Texas. I've noticed a marked difference in the appearance of English women and Southern women of English descent. I'm not totally sure why this is. I'm sorry if this didn't answer your question.

Thanks Cap'n. I actually have a cousin who lives in Texas for much of the year and he says that most white Texans are blondish or at least more northern-European looking, and that British/Irish and German ancestries far outnumber any others. He also told me that people of southern European (Italian, Greek, etc.) extraction are quite rare. I can attest to the fact that people of southern European ancestry are mainly concentrated in the Northeast. Texas is partially the South and partially the Southwest at the same time, however, therefore it is not totally Dixie.

I also was not aware of the fact that interracial marriages on the frontier were as common as you say. I suppose the Melungeon/Native American genes are more widespread and there are or have been many people from southern states who claim Native American ancestry (Heather Locklear, Elvis Presley, Chuck Norris, etc. are a few famous examples).