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Post by kynikos on Mar 17, 2004 21:32:10 GMT -5
Hi All,
I want to try and compile a collection of "religious beliefs", "superstitions", and "myths", likely to originate in prehistoric (Neolithic / Paleolithic) Mediterranean regions, with a view to seeing whehter any common culture is indicated.
As examples, I would give anything from the "soul-hunters" of Corsica, as described by Dorothy Carrington, to the Greek tales of Lamias and Kallikantzaroi, and anything similar.
All pointers and contributions on this subject most welcome.
Thanks in advance
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WB
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by WB on Mar 21, 2004 14:26:11 GMT -5
Well, try starting with Italians and Greeks, cuz there is information out there. Then move onto Iberia and North Africans.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 21, 2004 16:36:16 GMT -5
I don't know if it is pre-historic (it could well be) but in Zakynthos people kept snakes in their homes well into the 20th century. They were not exactly pets but they were considered somehow supernatural. The snake was called "stoiheio", I assume you know the meaning, and was not to be harmed. They believed that if you killed it, you would be killed in exactly the same way in one year. I think there is a connection with the way the Vestal Virgins in Rome kept snakes and possibly Apollo and Asclepius. There is an ancient Zakynthian coin which depicts a human form and a snake. In neighbouring Kephallonia I have heard there is a church that gets inundated with serpents a certain time of the year (the time of a religious festival) and people go there and pick up the snakes that climb onto the icons. I think they believe it brings them good luck. It will be difficult to tie it down to the mediterranean though. Snake worship is almost universal. www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0845683.html |
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Post by kynikos on Mar 21, 2004 18:27:36 GMT -5
Thanks Artemidoros,
That's exactly the kind of thing I am looking for.
I would guess prehistoric, NOT because of the snake, which, as you say could be Roman tradition, Aesculapian or whatever,
BUT because of the magical implication that you would die in the same way as the óôïé÷åéü if it was harmed.
This implies a certain kind of sympathetic magic. I don't know if you have read Carrington's "Granite Island", but there, the "soul hunters" dream of someone's death, as a result of which the person dies WITHIN A YEAR in a way similar to the dream.
If anyone is interested, I can supply more details.
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Post by Mouguias on Jun 17, 2004 4:39:13 GMT -5
If you want to learn on this matter, please see www.continuitas.com Check the PCT Texts on Line section and then download "Magico-religious Motivations in European Dialects: a Contribution to Archaeolinguistics" The author has researched on three levels of linguistic fossiles, and he claims he can prove that remnants of a Totemistic level, a politeistic one and (of course) a christian one, can be found in dialects spoken around the Mediterranean. Fascinating stuff |
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Post by kynikos on Jun 24, 2004 6:54:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Mougias!
I am also reading chapter 1 of your website (there you go, someone English-speaking DID visit it) and I have found it very worthwhile so far. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in European mythology.
It might be my imagination, but it reminds me a bit of Kalevala, more so than of the Celtic stuff...
Your ch. 2, 3 and 4 don't seem to work, I'll be checking again in future.
Best Regards
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Post by Mouguias on Jun 24, 2004 10:48:11 GMT -5
Very kind of you, Kinikos  The English version of my site, so bad for me, hasn`t been updated in a long time. I have lately changed my view on Asturian myths quite a lot, after I collected much more information than I had when I wrote the old version you read. I still believe that, in the myth of Creation, a certain divine Mother left the waters in the middle of darkness, bearing the sun-god in her womb. Yeah, I still think that part is correct, but I have found out that the most accurate parallel would be the birth of the Celtic sun-god, as depicted in "the Birth of Lugh" or "The Birth of Arthur", in Ireland and England respectively: the goddess is fleing from an evil father who wants to kill her son, since He (the newborn) will kill Him (the old, evil, dark god). There are some examples of the same idea in Greece, like the birth of Zeus (who was hidden from the wrath of Cronos) or the birth of Perseus (fleeing through the waves because his grandfather Acrisius was scared of him). The divine child represents a renewal of the universe, and his grandfather is a dark, evil kind of god that is called to disappear. It is funny that these old myths survived in our oral folklore. I envy the Greeks, Irish and Icelanders who noted them down when the old religion was still alive! |
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Post by Graeme on Jun 24, 2004 10:55:25 GMT -5
I don't know much about superstitions, but I know the Maltese paint eyes on their inter harbour boats, the eyes of Horus. It is supposed to ward off the evil eye or spirits. Apparently the evil eye or spirits can't stand being stared by the eyes of Horus.
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Post by kynikos on Jun 28, 2004 18:03:42 GMT -5
Thanks Graeme,
You will see "eyes" still painted all over the shop in Greece, or painted and worn as charms, funnily enough for the purpose of warding off the evil eye!
Greeks still speak of "matiasma", which literally means "eyeing", and refers to the casting of the evil eye by someone. It can be precipitated through spite and mainly jealousy, and acts as a subsequent jinx on a person's life.
There are still commonly used rituals (and experts) for "casting off" or exorcising the evil eye, don't know much about them, but generally they involve oil, water, some spitting, and a few Christian words.
Also, spitting three times if you see a person you really like looking good, is supposed to prevent the "evil eye" from doing its thing.
I often wondered about its origin, but this is the first time I heard anyone mention a link to the Eye of Horus, so thanks!
I wonder if any of our Italian, Spanish, French, Levantine or North African friends know of any similar traditions in their countries?
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Post by Dienekes on Jun 29, 2004 4:30:05 GMT -5
A traditional Greek superstition is washing one's hands after visiting a cemetary. The dead are a cause of miasma which must be purified.
Some of my relatives also have a superstition that you shouldn't wipe the crumbs off your hands as the last thing you do before getting off the table.
Another superstition is with using skordo (garlic).
Another New Year's eve superstition that some of my relatives have is to hit you symbolically with an iron bar while saying "sidero ki amoni" (iron and anvil).
The gademis figure which ruins a team's success is probably an old survival as well. In ancient times, esp. during crisis a person, called pharmakos, was executed to appease the gods and take all the "bad luck".
Pulling your hair if you see a black cat.
Entering a new house with the right foot.
Giving a flap on the back to someone who's cut their hair.
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Post by Cerdic on Jul 1, 2004 3:44:00 GMT -5
In Britain black cats, and encounters with them, are considered to be good luck. Shoes are never placed on tables, terrible bad luck ensues! Knives or sharp objects are not given as presents, as they will "cut the friendship."
In Roman times the phallus was considered a useful symbol to ward off the "evil eye" and a teracotta of two anthropomorphic phalluses cutting an evil eye with a two handed saw exists. The little pointed wavy charm that is still worn as jewellery, and usually called a "horn of plenty" is a survival from Greco-Roman times. In truth it represents a goat's penis, and was used against the evil eye and to promote fertility. The hand gesture of "the horns" ( a fist with the index and little finger pointing out) was and is used against the evil eye.
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Dean
Full Member
Truth Before Ego
Posts: 245
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Post by Dean on Jul 5, 2004 21:35:59 GMT -5
"Haros" (Charon, the ancient Greek Grim Reaper) is still used by Greeks. It's still used as a personification of death. "Tha se pari o Haros"--"Death will take you." My father told me a story of an old woman in the village who was on her deathbed and was throwing punches in the air, fighting "Haros".
To my grandmother, everything scary in the night was "Neraides"--Nereids--sea nymphs. An animal's eyes gleaming in the glare of headlights at night was Neraides. When I was in Greece she used to tell me not to go out at night because, "Tha se fane i Neraides"--"the Nereids will eat you."
Another one my father used to tell me in exasperation was, "Tha me stilis ston Ade"--"You will send me to Hades"--to the ancient Greek underworld of the dead.
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Post by xxx on Jul 9, 2004 16:04:14 GMT -5
Also, spitting three times if you see a person you really like looking good, is supposed to prevent the "evil eye" from doing its thing. Here in Spain there is no such thing as spitting, but I do know about 'evil eye'. I believe it is a gypsy thing. Basically, 'evil eye' (tr.: mal de ojo) is a curse launched by gypsy women. How to get rid of it? I don't know if there are any ''traditional'' ways, but I remember one very effective: Quite a few years ago there was a gypsy woman who always begged in the same area (well, beg... they assaulted you and almost demanded). To everyone who refused to give her some coins (or not enough coins to her liking), she would just cry a curse with much noise. Someone, probably a superstitious person, didn't like it much and decided to get rid of the curse. One night she was run over by a car that went on the run afterwards. Not very traditional, but effective nonetheless. ;D |
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Post by xxx on Jul 9, 2004 16:12:13 GMT -5
kynikos, for ancient (pre-classics) religious links among the Mediterranean peoples I think you should look into the strong beliefs in the Mother/Earth/Supreme Goddesses. This seems to be in contrast with the male supreme gods in the IE religions.
Further, I believe that the strength of the cult to Mary in Christianism among the Southern European nations has its origins in there too.
Also, there seems to be some common things in the beliefs in the afterworld (to which the figure of these goddesses are central to).
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Post by kynikos on Aug 11, 2004 14:10:32 GMT -5
Thanks for all the contributions so far, may of them I did not know. I am also intrigued (and still at a loss to explain) the penis as antidote for the evil eye. I would love to see the terracota with the saws, anyone have a link? Perhaps the idea is that some robust debauchery will get rid of any petty small-time magic? Maybe this is also the origin of other obscene gestures. === Mynydd, I will agree with you that many superstitions go back to the Mother Goddess period, although I think some are pure IE, while others may go back even futher to "animistic" or fetishistic period(s). A nice example of "feminist" superstition, is the Sicillian one about the tomato sauce (I have not verified this academically, but have heard it enough times from dfferent sources - perhaps a Sicillian can tell us?) Apparently it is said amongst the women that if they manage to hide some of their menstrual blood in their man's food, and get him to eat it, they will always control him! So there you go... no more tomato on my spagghetti, thank you.  === Another interesting (Neapolitan, I think) custom was portrayed in an old book and movie called the "Game". Here, based around a card game, even the lowest in social standing could insult, mock, or tease any other participant, without any fear of reprisal, if he had a winning hand. The "victim" had to grin and bear it, and was allowed no response... Nice safety valve if you ak me. Has anybody heard of it? |
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