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Post by kynikos on Aug 11, 2004 14:22:03 GMT -5
OK, following the two Italian ones on the previous page, here is one especially for all Greek frinds, the "Moutza".
This is probably the commonest exression of exasperation in modern Greece, and anyone who goes there sees it several times a day.
It consists of a throwing action of the hand, with the palm opening and the fingers outstretched, accompanied with words like "take that".
What is actually happening is that the person is "Throwing the Five", or applying an ancient curse. As far as I know, the only cure is to immediately pick up "The Five" (make a gesture of picking something up off the floor) and then throwing them back.
Some people, for good measure, throw "The Five" back double, that is with both hands, making "Ten". OK, so now you will know what all those exasperated Greeks are doing during the forthcoming Olympics, but does anyone know of the origin and meaning of this custom, and if it exisits in any other countries?
===
Dear fellow Greeks, let's hope the Games will be a great success, and that we will have little, or no use for the ìïýíôæá!!
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Post by Cerdic on Aug 13, 2004 6:26:12 GMT -5
I have heard that it is of Byzanto-Roman origins. When high status prisoners were paraded through the streets prior to their execution bystanders were, apparently, wont to throw and smear them with rotting vegetables and other filth - this and rather more violent indignities were heaped on the lately deposed Emperor Andronicus I in the 1180's. The moutza is supposed to mimic this action. I guess the psychology behind it is that the person on the receiving end is deserving of public disgrace, and by implication of execution!
That's the theory as I've heard it.
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Post by Artemidoros on Aug 13, 2004 20:28:59 GMT -5
I agree with Cerdic, I have read that soot was the most common substance used in the Middleages. I would like to add that mou(n)tza is often confused with faskelo but the latter is a hubris associated only with the middle finger and as such has a sexual element. I am afraid I already feel like gesturing. I am talking about the Kenteris fiasco. Flying to Greece on Sunday, so I will be able to do it from a shorter distance. I liked the opening ceremony but whoever brought that croaky Icelander to sing deserves a moutza.
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Post by kynikos on Aug 13, 2004 22:06:56 GMT -5
Hi Artemidoros, Cerdic, First things first: I liked the opening ceremony but whoever brought that croaky Icelander to sing deserves a moutza. To say the least!!! What the f@#!! was that about? That woman must have a VERY VERY good agent. As for the Kenteris afair, perhaps it is all for the better. Imagine him winning and _then_ being found full of dope! ==== I am not sure where I first heard that the mountza may be an old curse, it may have been George Mikes, the old Hungarian? travel writer. Subsequently, checking on the web, I found yet another Byzantine explanation, according to which it was in fact a punishment for misdemeanours, not serious offences. Apparently the judge had a container of ash for the purpose, stuck his open palm into it, and then imprinted the mark on the accused's face. It was to disgrace and warn, rather than punsh, something like a police warning. Perhaps from this the Greeks also say "óôÜ÷ôç óôá ìÜôéá óïõ", i.e "ashes in your eyes". However I remain open to all explanations for now. Maybe while you're in Greece, no doubt throwing the odd mountza Artemidoros , you can find out some more about its origin - enjoy. BTW, did you go to Wales, and was my observation about CZJ corrroborated?
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Post by BallisticaNervosa on Aug 15, 2004 5:26:23 GMT -5
What about the figure of the bull? All around the Mediterranean one can find references to the bull. Rome, Greece, Spain, etc.
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