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Post by Dienekes on Jul 7, 2004 18:34:09 GMT -5
I used to think that R1a was "typical" of the Proto-Slavs, due to the fact that R1a has very high frequencies in modern Slavic populations. I have changed my opinion recently because of a few factors:
- R1a is very old and has a wide distribution in Eurasia
- R1a is found in Indo-Iranians, and may represent an Iranian subtratum in Slavic populations
- R1a is found in the Near East and Western Europe which did not experience Slavic intrusions.
The argument that R1a is associated with Proto-Slavs is weak, because using the same reasoning one could also say that R1b should be associated with Celts, since it is high in populations that are/were Celtic. But, we know that R1b represents the aboriginal Western Europeans (pre-Celts). It's not unlikely that R1b also represents the pre-Slavs in Eastern Europe.
A particular subclade of haplogroup I, namely I1b seems to be frequent in all Slavic populations, but rare elsewhere. Importantly, I1b is not significant outside Europe (where the Slavs didn't go), and it's not significant in most of the Germanic world. But, it is also found at appreciable frequencies in Balts, the linguistic brothers of the Slavs. Furthermore, its diffusion from a Balkan or Central European origin harmonize with the prevalent view of a Central European origin of the Slavs and with mtDNA evidence about the southern Europoid origin of Slavic matrilineages.
As a result, I now think that I1b is more likely to have been typical of the Proto-Slavs, although I must stress that (a) I1b was never exclusively a "Slavic" marker, since Slavic ethnogenesis took place in the 5th-6th century AD, long after the time that I1b originated, and (b) the Proto-Slavs probably also had a high frequency of R1a, but I suspect that I1b is more diagnostic of Slavic heritage than R1a.
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Post by Artemidoros on Jul 7, 2004 20:15:24 GMT -5
Do you have any particular clade/clades of I1b in mind? I1b* for example? I take it I1b2* and I1b2a can be excluded as they appear mostly in southwestern Europe.
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Post by Dienekes on Jul 8, 2004 0:57:45 GMT -5
Do you have any particular clade/clades of I1b in mind? I1b* for example? I take it I1b2* and I1b2a can be excluded as they appear mostly in southwestern Europe. Yes, I1b2 arose in southern France or Iberia. |
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Post by Valery on Jul 8, 2004 4:04:54 GMT -5
harmonize ... with mtDNA evidence about the southern Europoid origin of Slavic matrilineages
I see, it is an indirect, secondary argument, but it does not seem accurate. If it is about S. Slavs - OK, not far from right. Unlike them, W and E Slavs are similar to N. Europeans, as inferred both by distance calculation and common mitotypes.
Ann. Hum. Genet. (2002), 66, 261-283
Mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians
B. A. MALYARCHUK, T. GRZYBOWSKI, M. V. DERENKO, J. CZARNY, M. WOZNIAK and D. MISCICKA-SLIWKA
(650 probands)
Despite the high level of mtDNA variation in
Poles and Russians, both populations exhibit a
similar pattern of mtDNA haplogroup distribution,
which is also typical for many European
populations studied. Moreover, the analysis of
distribution of CR haplotypes and subclusters
shared between Poles and Russians has shown
that both Slavonic populations share them
mainly with Germans and Finns. These data
allow us to suggest that Europeans, despite their
linguistic differences, originated in the common
genetic substratum which predates the formation
of the most modern European populations.
PS. There is one probable exception. According to recent unpublished data, W. Ukrainians are closer to S. Slavs than to Russians and Belorussians.
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Post by Graeme on Jul 8, 2004 10:42:38 GMT -5
North Europeans? Do you mean Russians, Belarussians and Poles? These slavic speakers are closely related to Germans and the Baltic people including Finns. There has been a lot of intermixing of various ethnic groups in Northeast to Northcentral Europe so that Belarussians are mainly Baltic, the Germans considerably germanised slavs and the Russians, russianised Finns. It doesn't really prove anything except that Slavs are mostly a linguistic and not particularly genetic group. So West/East Slavs are no more slavic than the South Slavs.
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Post by Valery on Jul 8, 2004 10:58:29 GMT -5
the Germans considerably germanised slavsSouth Slavs? 
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Post by Dienekes on Jul 8, 2004 16:56:08 GMT -5
The fact that e.g., Poles may be similar in mtDNA to Germans, does not in any way negate the fact that the Proto-Slavs were of southern Europoid origin. Similarity between Germans and Poles or other Slavic peoples is due to the fact that these are descended primarily from indigenous northern Europoids (pre-Slavs). To determine what the Proto-Slavs' patrilineages and matrilineages were, we have to look at the common mtDNA and Y chromosome elements. In the case of modern Slavs, I1b*(xI1b2) is an excellent choice as a common Y chromosome elment. As for mtDNA: www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000205.htmlFirst of all, most Slavs are similar to their geographical neighbors, as can be expected : But, the common component of Slavs is originally southern Europoid: Anthropologically too, we see that the Slavs are believed to have come from the West and the Southwest, and to also have Iranian connections. This supports the idea that I1b is more of a Proto-Slavic element than R1a since (within the Slavic range) I1b has a southwestern focus: |
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Post by Valery on Jul 9, 2004 2:42:33 GMT -5
As for mtDNA:
www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000205.html
All outdated. "Differentiation and Genetic Position of Slavs .." by Malyarchuk (2001) is based only on 250 Russian sequences and RFLPs and should be treated as preliminary information. Now Estonian Biocentre and Research Centre for Medical Genetics (Moscow) have sequenced about 1200 Russians/Belorussians and 350 Ukrainians, but only 1/5 published.
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Post by Dienekes on Jul 9, 2004 3:36:30 GMT -5
All outdated. "Differentiation and Genetic Position of Slavs .." by Malyarchuk (2001) is based only on 250 Russian sequences and RFLPs and should be treated as preliminary information. Now Estonian Biocentre and Research Centre for Medical Genetics (Moscow) have sequenced about 1200 Russians/Belorussians and 350 Ukrainians, but only 1/5 published. That has absolutely no bearing on the matter of the origins of Slav mtDNA. |
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Dean
Full Member
Truth Before Ego
Posts: 245
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Post by Dean on Jul 11, 2004 21:51:27 GMT -5
A particular subclade of haplogroup I, namely I1b seems to be frequent in all Slavic populations, but rare elsewhere. Importantly, I1b is not significant outside Europe (where the Slavs didn't go), and it's not significant in most of the Germanic world. But, it is also found at appreciable frequencies in Balts, the linguistic brothers of the Slavs. Furthermore, its diffusion from a Balkan or Central European origin harmonize with the prevalent view of a Central European origin of the Slavs and with mtDNA evidence about the southern Europoid origin of Slavic matrilineages. As a result, I now think that I1b is more likely to have been typical of the Proto-Slavs, although I must stress that (a) I1b was never exclusively a "Slavic" marker, since Slavic ethnogenesis took place in the 5th-6th century AD, long after the time that I1b originated, and (b) the Proto-Slavs probably also had a high frequency of R1a, but I suspect that I1b is more diagnostic of Slavic heritage than R1a. This has interesting implications for the population of my ancestry, Arcadian Greeks. As you all know, I've posted my haplogroup result, I1b. My FamilyTreeDNA Y DNA matches are mostly with Poles, Romanians, Hungarians and Russians. The trace of East Asian DNA found in my autosomal DNA test might be explained by my belonging to one of these population types. AncestryByDNA, which offers the autosomal test, has an "Ethnicities" section which states that trace East Asian DNA among caucasoids is found in central- and eastern Europeans, who experienced invasions by Huns and Avars. Arcadia, specifically the area around Tripoli, has ample evidence of Slavic settlement in toponymy, e.g. Stemnitsa and other toponyms with -itsi and -itsa, and in surnames and light pigmentation of its residents. None of these people are, however, neo-Danubian in appearance, that is, broad/round headed and flat-faced with light pigmentation. My father, who was Baltic-white, among one of the most light-pigmented people I've ever seen, was long-headed, as were many of his male siblings. What is certain is that Slavic toponymy was never present in ancient Greece. This all seems to add up to a Slavic influence among some Arcadians. These people intermarried with an olive-skinned type that is common among us. I revisited the Di Giacomo et al. study of Greeks and Italians and found that in continental Greece, haplogroup I-M170 is prevalent; this haplogroup has several subclades, some which may not be relevant here. I-M270 is the second most prevalent lineage in Greece, at 18.2%, behind the Neolithic DE. I-M170 is also numerically significant in Crete, where it occupies the third-most frequency of haplogroups. There are, however, other scenarios that could've brought this haplogroup to Arcadia--Albanians and "Vlachs". "Vlach" is a generic and derogatory term among some Greeks. There may be other explanations, such as historical events that eluded documentation. In my mind the least likely scenario is that I1b in me is the remnant of ancient Greeks, given the history of Arcadia, and I say this without a political agenda, of which I've been accused. If there wasn't evidence of Slavic culture in the area, I would be much more inclined to believe that my I1b is of ancient Greek origin. Furthermore, I am in no way arguing that Greeks on the whole are not biologically descended from their ancient cultural ancestors. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Jul 12, 2004 7:56:39 GMT -5
This has interesting implications for the population of my This all seems to add up to Slavism among some Arcadians. I revisited the Di Giacomo et al. study of Greeks and Italians and found that in continental Greece, lineages of I-M170 are prevalent; they are the second most prevalent lineage in Greece, at 18.2%, behind the Neolithic DE. I-M170 is also numerically significant in Crete, where it occupies the third-most frequency of haplogroups. There was no Slavic settlement in Crete. According to the Di Giacomo study the average of I-M170 for Crete is 14%. If we consider the percentage of increased I-M170 lineages (the bulk of which is I1B*) as an indication of Slavic settlement, then we have a 4.2% difference between mainland Greece and Crete. Given that the Slavs brought their womenfolk with them and that central European Slavs have very high levels of I-M170 (approaching 50% in some cases, which was probably higher in the 6th century), I would roughly estimate the Slavic input in the mainland, at <10%. With regards to the Peloponnese, I have to agree with you that the Patras sample is very smal (18) and yes the city has attracted people from all over the Peloponnese and elsewhere. There is though another bigger sample (36) from the Peloponnese, as yet unpublished, which broadly agrees with the Di Giacomo one. hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdfLook at the bottom of page 9. It does not give I percentage but percentages of E and J are indicative. It appears that in southern Greece E approaches 50%. Of course in mountainous areas such Arcadia with evidence of Slavic settlement I would expect to find much higher levels of I1b* as well as R1a. I am afraid you will have to wait for some time before an Arcadian sample is studied. |
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Dean
Full Member
Truth Before Ego
Posts: 245
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Post by Dean on Jul 12, 2004 8:36:59 GMT -5
There was no Slavic settlement in Crete. According to the Di Giacomo study the average of I-M170 for Crete is 14%. If we consider the percentage of increased I-M170 lineages (the bulk of which is I1B*) as an indication of Slavic settlement, then we have a 4.2% difference between mainland Greece and Crete. Given that the Slavs brought their womenfolk with them and that central European Slavs have very high levels of I-M170 (approaching 50% in some cases, which was probably higher in the 6th century), I would roughly estimate the Slavic input in the mainland, at <10%. With regards to the Peloponnese, I have to agree with you that the Patras sample is very smal (18) and yes the city has attracted people from all over the Peloponnese and elsewhere. There is though another bigger sample (36) from the Peloponnese, as yet unpublished, which broadly agrees with the Di Giacomo one. hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdfLook at the bottom of page 9. It does not give I percentage but percentages of E and J are indicative. It appears that in southern Greece E approaches 50%. Of course in mountainous areas such Arcadia with evidence of Slavic settlement I would expect to find much higher levels of I1b* as well as R1a. I am afraid you will have to wait for some time before an Arcadian sample is studied. And again, many of us from this region are olive-skinned, no matter from who we are descended. As light-skinned as my father was, one of his siblings is olive-skinned and has an Anatolian or Levantine appearance. |
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Post by Graeme on Jul 12, 2004 10:51:11 GMT -5
And Anatolian or Levantine is bad? Olive skin is bad? Having what you call an olive skin, presumably light brown skin colour is good. Why? Because with that skin you can live anywhere on this planet without too much trouble. I am Maltese and have a white skin and I don't tan. It is definitely a problem living here in Australia and in my patria. I have had basal cell carcinoma three times. So I have often wished I had your olive skin. It would have saved me some pain.
As Maltese as I am, I would never describe any of my countrymen as Levantine or Anatolian because they don't originate from there. So they can't be thus classified. Yes some of them have non florid complexions. I have never thought that implied anything other than being from Southern Europe.
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Post by Artemidoros on Jul 12, 2004 18:15:08 GMT -5
And again, many of us from this region are olive-skinned, no matter from who we are descended. As light-skinned as my father was, one of his siblings is olive-skinned and has an Anatolian or Levantine appearance. Well, is it a surprise there are "olive-skinned" people in the heart of the Peloponnese? A region where most ancestry came from or through the Middle East (I include pre-Slavic I Y-chromosome bearers) and whose genes have been basking in the Greek sunshine for thousands of years? |
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Dean
Full Member
Truth Before Ego
Posts: 245
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Post by Dean on Jul 12, 2004 22:45:43 GMT -5
Well, is it a surprise there are "olive-skinned" people in the heart of the Peloponnese? A region where most ancestry came from or through the Middle East (I include pre-Slavic I Y-chromosome bearers) and whose genes have been basking in the Greek sunshine for thousands of years? And that sunshine was hot! I remember the siestas of the experienced. When I was a kid, I couldn't sleep in the afternoon in Greece during siesta time, and I snuck out to play. I remember getting very sick from the dry heat. This olive skin almost never lightens. Here in Chicago, in the Great Lakes' brutally cold and long winters, the pigment remains the same. My skin is a light olive color. I often get mistaken for being Hispanic. Many times on the street Hispanic people talk to me in Spanish. I sometimes answer them in Greek. |
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