Post by Polako on Jul 13, 2004 22:24:28 GMT -5
Well, I'm very disappointed in this discussion. People have such rigid views here. They read one snippit somewhere, interpret it their own way, and then think that what they say must be gospel.
Looking for a proto-Slavic marker is almost like looking for a Proto-Slavic face. Do you people think that all Slavs had the same face to begin with?
Do you think that god created a Slav male and female like Adam and Eve, and then these two pure Slavs created the Slavic ethnic group, which then, eventually, began mixing with other groups?
No.
To be honest, we don't even know where Slavic ethnogenesis took place, but it was probably central Europe.
I propose that the proto-Slavs were a mixture of three groups:
Central European natives, same as those who helped form the Germanic tribes
Eastern European steppe invaders, speaking IE languages
Southern European migrant farmers, who may also have been IE speakers
The evidence?
Well, Polish ancestral genetic markers provide us with a clear suggestion of what happened.
Polish mtDNA is almost identical to that of Germanic speakers. Thus, it seems clear that both have their origins in the one place - north central Europe.
On the other hand, just over half of the Polish paternal Y-chromosome markers come from the east. Where exactly we don't yet know, but probably the Black Sea steppes.
Obviously, some kind of an invasion took place, where males from the east displaced much of the native male population, and had their wicked way with local maidens.
But it's not out of the question that some women accompanied the male invaders, hence some mtDNA matches with those in Iran and other southern Caucasoid (as opposed to southern European per se) populations.
Thirdly, there was a well know agricultural revolution, which probably had an impact on Slavic or proto-Slavic populations. Southern y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages must have made their way up north thanks to this event.
Finnic, Ugrian and Uralic dna also made an impact on Slavic populations, as invaders came in from the east, and as Slavs expanded east.
There is some evidence of Ugrian influence on southern Slavs, especially Croatians and Bulgarians. But this shouldn't be surprising considering the Magyar, Bulgar and Hun migrations into the Balkans.
I should mention at this point that Finnic dna appears to be largely of Central European origin. Finnish mtDNA is much like that of other Europeans, especially those of Germanics and Slavs. Autosomal dna tells us the same story. But yes, the Finns do appear to have connections to Uralic groups which is evident through their Y-chromosome ancetsral markers, over 50% of which appear to be Uralic - Tat-C in other words.
Ok, so now let's get to the crux of the issue: proto-Slavic markers.
I propose that the proto-Slavo/Baltic group of tribes in central Europe already carried quite a bit of R1a, as well as sizeable amounts of I1b.
Their mtDNA was of central European inspiration, with some southern European lineages, thanks to ancient links to southern caucasoids, and also due to later migrations from the Balkans (?).
There may have been some Uralic or Lappish influence at this point, but that's hard to say. Poles and Russians do show traces of mtDNA which is also found in Lapps. But they're just traces.
The Balts were almost identical to us for a while, until they started mixing with groups to the north-east. Now they have about 20-40% of Tat-C, which is relatively rare in most Slavs.
...
So considering all that, I don't find it surprising that both R1a and a specififc type of I1b are both so common in Slavs today.
That I1b type is slightly more common in Croats, because it originally came from the Balkans. Thus, in Croats, it is probably of both Slavic and native Balkan inspiration.
Slavic mtDNA is mostly Central European, with links to southern Europe or western Asia, but more correctly southern Caucasoids.
Traces of Uarlic mtDNA in Slavs, just like traces of Uralic Y-chromosomes, may be of ancient or more recent origin. But these Uralic markers seem consistent with the amounts of East Eurasian autosomal DNA found in Slavs, which is also very low.
To date, I have not seen any solid data supporting theories that Turko-Mongol invaders contributed to any, but the Bulgar and Croat, gene pools. I'm talking about data on Y-chromosome markers, mtDNA markers, HLAs and autosomal DNA.
It should also be noted that the HLA markers always show most Slavs clustering further away from East Eurasian and Uralic populations than many West European groups.
Looking for a proto-Slavic marker is almost like looking for a Proto-Slavic face. Do you people think that all Slavs had the same face to begin with?
Do you think that god created a Slav male and female like Adam and Eve, and then these two pure Slavs created the Slavic ethnic group, which then, eventually, began mixing with other groups?
No.
To be honest, we don't even know where Slavic ethnogenesis took place, but it was probably central Europe.
I propose that the proto-Slavs were a mixture of three groups:
Central European natives, same as those who helped form the Germanic tribes
Eastern European steppe invaders, speaking IE languages
Southern European migrant farmers, who may also have been IE speakers
The evidence?
Well, Polish ancestral genetic markers provide us with a clear suggestion of what happened.
Polish mtDNA is almost identical to that of Germanic speakers. Thus, it seems clear that both have their origins in the one place - north central Europe.
On the other hand, just over half of the Polish paternal Y-chromosome markers come from the east. Where exactly we don't yet know, but probably the Black Sea steppes.
Obviously, some kind of an invasion took place, where males from the east displaced much of the native male population, and had their wicked way with local maidens.
But it's not out of the question that some women accompanied the male invaders, hence some mtDNA matches with those in Iran and other southern Caucasoid (as opposed to southern European per se) populations.
Thirdly, there was a well know agricultural revolution, which probably had an impact on Slavic or proto-Slavic populations. Southern y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages must have made their way up north thanks to this event.
Finnic, Ugrian and Uralic dna also made an impact on Slavic populations, as invaders came in from the east, and as Slavs expanded east.
There is some evidence of Ugrian influence on southern Slavs, especially Croatians and Bulgarians. But this shouldn't be surprising considering the Magyar, Bulgar and Hun migrations into the Balkans.
I should mention at this point that Finnic dna appears to be largely of Central European origin. Finnish mtDNA is much like that of other Europeans, especially those of Germanics and Slavs. Autosomal dna tells us the same story. But yes, the Finns do appear to have connections to Uralic groups which is evident through their Y-chromosome ancetsral markers, over 50% of which appear to be Uralic - Tat-C in other words.
Ok, so now let's get to the crux of the issue: proto-Slavic markers.
I propose that the proto-Slavo/Baltic group of tribes in central Europe already carried quite a bit of R1a, as well as sizeable amounts of I1b.
Their mtDNA was of central European inspiration, with some southern European lineages, thanks to ancient links to southern caucasoids, and also due to later migrations from the Balkans (?).
There may have been some Uralic or Lappish influence at this point, but that's hard to say. Poles and Russians do show traces of mtDNA which is also found in Lapps. But they're just traces.
The Balts were almost identical to us for a while, until they started mixing with groups to the north-east. Now they have about 20-40% of Tat-C, which is relatively rare in most Slavs.
...
So considering all that, I don't find it surprising that both R1a and a specififc type of I1b are both so common in Slavs today.
That I1b type is slightly more common in Croats, because it originally came from the Balkans. Thus, in Croats, it is probably of both Slavic and native Balkan inspiration.
Slavic mtDNA is mostly Central European, with links to southern Europe or western Asia, but more correctly southern Caucasoids.
Traces of Uarlic mtDNA in Slavs, just like traces of Uralic Y-chromosomes, may be of ancient or more recent origin. But these Uralic markers seem consistent with the amounts of East Eurasian autosomal DNA found in Slavs, which is also very low.
To date, I have not seen any solid data supporting theories that Turko-Mongol invaders contributed to any, but the Bulgar and Croat, gene pools. I'm talking about data on Y-chromosome markers, mtDNA markers, HLAs and autosomal DNA.
It should also be noted that the HLA markers always show most Slavs clustering further away from East Eurasian and Uralic populations than many West European groups.