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Post by Artemidoros on May 24, 2005 18:45:21 GMT -5
This is how it is described: www.reformation.org/columbus-unmasked.htmlAs a matter of fact, the surname of the two notorious corsairs known as Colombo and Colombo the Younger was not Colombo. They were vice-admirals of the French fleet during the reign of Louis XI and were respectively Guillaume de Casenove and his successor George Palaeologue de Bissipat. www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/tilley.htm#navyThey, like Columbus, were known as Colon, Coulon, Colomb, Colom, Colombo etc. depending on the language of those referring to them. I tried to find out how or why they had assumed that name and it seems to have started with a brilliant ship called the Dove. www.archeonavale.org/cordeliere/proj_an/c_3a.php
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Post by Artemidoros on May 24, 2005 18:48:29 GMT -5
George Palaeologue de Bissipat in particular was known by many other aliases such as George le Grec, George Griego, Nicolo Griego, Giovanni Griego, Colombo il Giovane, Colomb le Joven etc. He was also mistakenly called “de Casenove” just as de Casenove was referred to as “de Bissipat”. I don’t think his claim to Royal Palaiologos blood can be verified but there were several Palaiologoi serving as mercenaries for the Venetians at the time (light cavalry, stradiot(t)i), and a little later. They seem to have been from the Peloponnesian branch of the clan. The fact that he also uses the surname Disypatos should excude anyone from Serbia or Monferat. He may also have been from Constantinople or Chios where many members of prominent Byzantine families had sought refuge after being dispossessed by the advancing Ottomans. It is worth noting that the Chians were Genoese citizens at the time and 300 of the 700 Genoese troops who fought valiantly alongside the last Byzantine emperor in 1453 were Chians, just as many of the Venetians were actually Cretans. www.christopherlong.co.uk/pub.chiosinfo.htmlThere are claims by those who support that Columbus was Catalan that de Bissipat was mistakenly identified by the Venetians as Colon the Younger. That is in my opinion extremely unlikely. He was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Venetians, including nobles, and for great material loss to the Republic. Would the US misidentify Bin Laden? Also would he be misidentified by the French king, under whose flag he sailed? Here is an interesting link. Apologies for the automatic translation from Italian. translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.corsaridelmediterraneo.it/corsari/c/colombo-il-giovane.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DColombo%2Bil%2BGiovane%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DGDe Bissipat must then be “the other admiral” in Columbus’ family. This link between the two men goes a long way towards a possible explanation of Columbus’ marriage into the Perestrello family. He was not a dispossessed Genoese sailor of humble birth. He was an educated and wealthy man, with links to French nobility and a member of a powerful “brotherhood of corsairs”. The two Columbus brothers were their representatives in Portugal and his marriage was a kind of contract. The seal of an alliance. De Bissipat may or may not have been a noble Byzantine but he was most likely Greek. Does Columbus’ relation to him make him a Greek? Not necessarily, since we do not know their exact kinship but it is a strong indication that he may have indeed been a Genoese citizen of, at least partly, Greek origin. Perhaps from Chios or Constantinople or even from the Black Sea.
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Post by Artemidoros on May 24, 2005 18:54:57 GMT -5
What were the Greeks doing in western Europe? Greeks in the Spanish navy? It just doesn’t sound right to most people I assume. Yet, it would not have sounded at all strange to the Spanish sailors of 1500 AD. The Greek nation has not, and quite rightly so, taken a share of the credit or the guilt for what individual Greeks did during the Age of Exploration. This does not alter the fact that Greeks were in significant numbers amongst the seafarers, the conquistadores and the New World colonists. As the Byzantine Empire was collapsing under the blows of the Ottomans, having been seriously weakened by endless civil wars and the aggression of the Crusaders, Greek sailors, adventurers, merchants and rogues continued to do what their ancestors had always done. Empire or no empire, they left their homeland in search of “their fortune”. The ones under Ottoman control went mostly east. They conveniently converted to Islam and along with other Ottoman subjects sought riches in the Indian Ocean. www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/cmh/cmh101.htmlMany of the islands and mainland ports were still in the hands of the Venetians, the Genoese and the Knights of St John. Greeks from those areas went west. Many ended up working for the Spanish. Just looking at the list of survivors from Magellan’s journey of circumnavigation we see a number of Greeks. Miguel de Rodas, boatswain (contramaestre) of the Victoria. Francisco Albo, of Axio, boatswain of the Trinidad. Miguel Sanchez, of Rodas, skilled seaman (marinero) of the Victoria. Nicholas the Greek, of Naples, marinero of the Victoria Felippe de Rodas, of Rodas, marinero of the Victoriawww.foyco.com/gen2/z0000875.htmRodas is the island of Rhodes. Francisco Albo was also a Rhodian, probably from a village today called Ixia. www.redlandsfortnightly.org/Moersch01.htmNicholas the Greek was not from Naples in Italy but from Napoli di Romagnia, today’s Nafplion in the Peloponnese. Five Greeks amongst 35 people who completed the circumnavigation of the globe in 1522. Pedro de Candia (Candia is Iraclion in Crete) was with Pizzaro in south America, and was the first European to cross the Andes. He was not the only Greek of the expedition. www.famousamericans.net/pedrodecandia/The person credited with being the first Greek in what was to become the USA was someone called Doroteo Teodoro, who set foot in Florida in 1528 with Cabeza de Vaca and was killed by the Indians. www.greeknews.us/agalma.htmThe best known perhaps was Juan de Fuca, also known as Ioannis Phocas or Apostolos Valerianos from Cephalonia. He is credited with the discovery of the De Fuca straits between Vancouver and the mainland in 1592. www.famousamericans.net/apostolosvalerianos/There were many colonists too. For example Juan Griego settled in New Mexico in 1598. members.tripod.com/~GaryFelix/index5E.htmI guess we will never know Columbus’ secret. Why was he hiding his true identity? Was it because he had simply lied about being a Catholic? Was it something more serious like bigamy he was trying to conceal? Would he have hung at the port of Genoa like another Colombo many years later? Was he perhaps wanted for murder? Or was he trying to shield loved ones from the wrath of those he had harmed as a corsair? There are many unanswered questions and plenty of room for speculation. I enjoyed my little research in any case. O Christos Meth' Ymon, like Columbus would have said.
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 4:21:56 GMT -5
Interestingly the whole sigla becomes exactly half Latin, half Greek. Top part Latin, middle part Greek and bottom part half Greek, half Latin.
thats because thats the way "latin" was writing back then.
"He had himself said he was Genoese and that is how he was known as far away as the Ottoman Empire. This is well documented:"
no,that document is not from him as you stated.
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 4:32:24 GMT -5
"There were many Portuguese and Catalans sailing for Castile and Aragon at the time and the risk of a Portuguese or Catalan aristocrat, of the same trade, being recognised and exposed would have been unacceptably high. I think we can safely write off the possibility"
you didnt read or watched Charles Merrill and the history behinde all this.i can name you a couple of Portuguese navigators conquistadors who choose to work for the castilian banner,so its absoltely possible.
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 4:35:44 GMT -5
"More importantly perhaps, was Columbus on one of the Genoese ships that came under attack off Portugal or was he with the French corsairs who attacked them?"
this question was already answered
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 4:40:21 GMT -5
"This does not alter the fact that Greeks were in significant numbers amongst the seafarers, the conquistadores and the New World colonists." ? reall like who? it sounds like that irish guy pcony who once said there were alot of irish conquistados then i found out there was possibly two and one of them is a mystery lol i did this kinda sloppy but ill be back and fix this
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Post by cunjar on May 25, 2005 6:32:02 GMT -5
Well Reaserched and presented Artemidoros, you've definately given strong evidence of Columbus possibly being of Greek ancestry, Im still sceptical, but Im pretty sure he wasnt Iberian
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 6:51:44 GMT -5
Well Reaserched and presented Artemidoros, you've definately given strong evidence of Columbus possibly being of Greek ancestry, Im still sceptical, but Im pretty sure he wasnt Iberian if he was greek then why didnt he name one island a greek name.if he was greek then why didnt he write anything in greek?if he was greek then why hasnt anyone ever writing that he spoke greek?if he was greek then why didnt he ever mention greece? if he was greek then why didnt his son believe he was greek.if he was greek then why did his son go to genoa and try to find roots in italy?(btw he didnt find one single living ancestor not ONE!) why was the first island that he named Portuguese? amigosdacuba.no.sapo.pt/paginas/cubaframes.htmi can go on forever
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Post by Tautamo on May 25, 2005 6:56:41 GMT -5
oh the most damaging of all his living ancestor Dr Anunciada Colón de Carvajal (take a guess what she claims LOL
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XpoFERENS
New Member
Columbus de Terra Rubra
Posts: 10
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Post by XpoFERENS on May 27, 2005 23:45:24 GMT -5
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Post by Artemidoros on May 29, 2005 16:16:12 GMT -5
Well Reaserched and presented Artemidoros, you've definately given strong evidence of Columbus possibly being of Greek ancestry, Im still sceptical, but Im pretty sure he wasnt Iberian I am not trying to convince anyone since I am not convinced myself. Finding proof is almost impossible, since Columbus himself erected smokescreens everywhere and left a number of false pointers around. There is no question about it, he was a shady character. When he left Portugal for Spain it was in secret and in haste. There is a letter from the King of Portugal written to him 3-4 years later asking him to go back and that he would not be in trouble with the law. There are only two things I am absolutely certain about. One is that he was trying to conceal his past and the other that he insisted he was Genoese. Both of them right to the end of his life. If we accept he was trying to hide his true identity, then why should we accept he was telling the truth about his nationality and thus giving his detractors a lead? Even if he was a Genoese child born out of wedlock as some suggest, wouldn't his using a variation of his supposed true name and telling them where he was born be enough info for his identification? There were many Genoese in Iberia and, especially after his discovery, everyone in Genoa would have known exactly who he was. The information would have reached the Spanish court in a few weeks maximum. Most scholars, and many dedicated their live's work to this matter, accept that he was indeed Genoese based on Genoese archives. The problem is the archives contradict his biographers, especially those that knew him intimately. His son Fernando, Las Casas, Peter Martyr and Andres Bernaldez, who for example has written that Columbus was around 70 when he died and not 55. The same scholars have failed to explain how a Genoese who according to the archives was still in Genoa at the age of 21 was incapable of writing two sentences in Italian without making a mess of it and had to keep writing to his compatriots in Latin or Castillean Spanish. Or why when he had difficulty in Spanish he would use a Portuguese word and never an Italian. Finding records of Colombos in Genoa with brothers called Bartolomeo and Giacomo was not big deal. Just over three generations after Columbus' death there were no less than 3 unrelated people from the area around Genoa claiming his inheritance with similar records I am not claiming he was definitely Greek. I am only saying the theory he was of Greek origin should be examined seriously. We know for example that he had written to Bartolomeo in a strange alphabet that was thought to have been a code. Some suggest it may have been Hebrew. Why couldn't it have been Greek, given that half his sigla was in that language? PS. I am certain the second layer of his sigla is Greek. It may not have stood for Christos Meth' Ymon. Maybe it was Christos Megas Ypsistos or something else. It was Greek though
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XpoFERENS
New Member
Columbus de Terra Rubra
Posts: 10
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Post by XpoFERENS on May 29, 2005 23:16:11 GMT -5
Numerous and different conclusions can be draw from his sigla to fit different theories, but what we know for sure is that it is a Greco-latin combination. It is worth noting that Christopher Columbus called himself, and signed documents, " Columbus de Terra Rubra" (Columbus of the Red Earth), because of the red earth of southern Chios where the mastic tree grows. Also notable is that Chios is the only place with red earth, that as far as my knowledge, is also a place that claims to be the home of Columbus. www.grecoreport.com/images/Columbus_signature.jpg[/img]
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Post by Artemidoros on May 30, 2005 15:36:42 GMT -5
Numerous and different conclusions can be draw from his sigla to fit different theories, but what we know for sure is that it is a Greco-latin combination. Yes, what matters is that it is a Greco-Latin combination. Just as the top layer can not be Greek, the second layer can not be Latin. [/img][/quote] I think there was an area called Terrarossa near Genoa where Columbus is supposed to originate from.
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Post by lurker4now on May 30, 2005 16:42:12 GMT -5
[/img][/quote] doesnt answer a single thing.
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