Andrea
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IM ROY JE DA JEST TO VESNIYO - May they all have a paradise this springtime
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Post by Andrea on May 11, 2004 14:05:26 GMT -5
Here is an evidence, deliberately neglected by anti-Hellenic historians, which shows that Scythians and Lydians were actually of Greek stock. It comes directly from the Herodotus' histories.
Why those facts are neglected is a real mystery.
1. Evidence for the Greekness of the Lydians:
Lydian kings were Heraclides
[Hdt. 1.7] The sovereignty of Lydia, which had belonged to the Heraclides, passed into the family of Croesus, who were called the Mermnadae, in the manner which I will now relate. There was a certain king of Sardis, Candaules by name, whom the Greeks called Myrsilus. He was a descendant of Alcaeus, son of Hercules. The first king of this dynasty was Agron, son of Ninus, grandson of Belus, and great-grandson of Alcaeus; Candaules, son of Myrsus, was the last. The kings who reigned before Agron sprang from Lydus, son of Atys, from whom the people of the land, called previously Meonians, received the name of Lydians. The Heraclides, descended from Hercules and the slave-girl of Jardanus, having been entrusted by these princes with the management of affairs, obtained the kingdom by an oracle. Their rule endured for two and twenty generations of men, a space of five hundred and five years; during the whole of which period, from Agron to Candaules, the crown descended in the direct line from father to son.
1. Evidence for the Greekness of the Scythians:
Scythian kings were Heraclides
[Hdt. 4.9] On waking, he went in quest of them, and, after wandering over the whole country, came at last to the district called "the Woodland," where he found in a cave a strange being, between a maiden and a serpent, whose form from the waist upwards was like that of a woman, while all below was like a snake.
He looked at her wonderingly; but nevertheless inquired, whether she had chanced to see his strayed mares anywhere. She answered him, "Yes, and they were now in her keeping; but never would she consent to give them back, unless he took her for his mistress."
So Hercules, to get his mares back, agreed; but afterwards she put him off and delayed restoring the mares, since she wished to keep him with her as long as possible. He, on the other hand, was only anxious to secure them and to get away.
At last, when she gave them up, she said to him, "When thy mares strayed hither, it was I who saved them for thee: now thou hast paid their salvage; for lo! I bear in my womb three sons of thine. Tell me therefore when thy sons grow up, what must I do with them? Wouldst thou wish that I should settle them here in this land, whereof I am mistress, or shall I send them to thee?"
Thus questioned, they say, Hercules answered, "When the lads have grown to manhood, do thus, and assuredly thou wilt not err. Watch them, and when thou seest one of them bend this bow as I now bend it, and gird himself with this girdle thus, choose him to remain in the land. Those who fail in the trial, send away. Thus wilt thou at once please thyself and obey me."
[Hdt. 4.10] Hereupon he strung one of his bows - up to that time he had carried two - and showed her how to fasten the belt. Then he gave both bow and belt into her hands. Now the belt had a golden goblet attached to its clasp.
So after he had given them to her, he went his way; and the woman, when her children grew to manhood, first gave them severally their names. One she called Agathyrsus, one Gelonus, and the other, who was the youngest, Scythes.
Then she remembered the instructions she had received from Hercules, and, in obedience to his orders, she put her sons to the test. Two of them, Agathyrsus and Gelonus, proving unequal to the task enjoined, their mother sent them out of the land;
Scythes, the youngest, succeeded, and so he was allowed to remain. From Scythes, the son of Hercules, were descended the after kings of Scythia; and from the circumstance of the goblet which hung from the belt, the Scythians to this day wear goblets at their girdles. This was the only thing which the mother of Scythes did for him. Such is the tale told by the Greeks who dwell around the Pontus.
So, all theories of Scythians being Iranians and Lydians being Anatolian people are just a false attempt of dehellenization of those wonderfull people whose trace back to Deucalion is more than evident. Period.
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Post by Artemidoros on May 11, 2004 17:36:46 GMT -5
Will you now proceed and explain to Melnorme that the Ethiopians are actually Jewish, since Haile Selassie claimed to be a direct descendant of king Solomon? Otherwise make the point you trully intended to make and let the flames engulf us all.
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Post by Artemisia on May 11, 2004 17:53:22 GMT -5
Andrea, could you please make your point and leave the sarcasm out? Many of us know better than you who the Lydians and Scythians were.
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Post by Aria88 on May 11, 2004 23:08:43 GMT -5
My knowledge of the Lydians is limited, but I believe they may have been Phrygian. Could be wrong. Of course, there must have been some Hittite in there ancestry (but the Phrygians themselves could be equated to a degree with Hittites?). This makes the Lydians a couple steps removed from Hellenes.
As to the Scythians, don't get me started. They, of course were Iranians who remained on the steppes, the quasi-mythological Eran Vaeja of Shah Nameh. They included some groups of so-called agricultural Scythians (proto-Slavs), and -- to a lesser degree -- Ugrians and proto-Huns. The ruling elite were usually of purer Iranian stock (e.g. Royal Scyths).
It has been history, historians and folkish perceptions over the past 2500 years that have been Hellenocentric, not the reverse. I posit as an example the way Alexander of Macedon is portrayed. Good idea for a thread...
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Post by Dienekes on May 11, 2004 23:43:04 GMT -5
My knowledge of the Lydians is limited, but I believe they may have been Phrygian. Could be wrong. Of course, there must have been some Hittite in there ancestry (but the Phrygians themselves could be equated to a degree with Hittites?). This makes the Lydians a couple steps removed from Hellenes. You are indeed wrong. The Phrygians were unrelated to either Lydians or Hittites.
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Andrea
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IM ROY JE DA JEST TO VESNIYO - May they all have a paradise this springtime
Posts: 119
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Post by Andrea on May 12, 2004 0:22:51 GMT -5
Aria88 dear... I didn't know that you really belive that rubish about Alexander of Macedon being something else than a Hellen. For God's sake he belonged to Temenidae branch, a direct heir of Hercules. Like Scythian and Lydian kings were.
Well, it all make sense. Iranians were Hellenes too. Somewhere on this forum I posted a quote from Herodotus histories where Xerxes, the king of Persia, HIMSELF claims an Argive descent...more precisely a descent from Perseus and Andromeda. Actually what he stated was that Persians were heirs of Perseus and Andromeda.
Now, if some person him/herself claims an Argive descent we should belive her/him. So, everything fits. Scythians and Persians being of Iranian stock and of Argive descent.
As for Haile Selassie being a Jew...I'm not sure...but Andromeda was an Ethiopian princess.
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Post by Graeme on May 12, 2004 6:24:28 GMT -5
Why are we arguing about extinct people: Lydians and Scythians. Never heard the hellenes stuff before, but it is interesting barring the herakles bit. Personally I think the Scythians were Iranians at least by language. The Lydians were mythic in Roman times.
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Post by Artemisia on May 12, 2004 11:11:50 GMT -5
I see, Andrea, that you couldn't argue in the "Macedonia" thread that the Macedonians were Hellenes. Now you've created a new thread in order to prove, in a very subtle way, that since ancient historians say that there was a mythic connection between Greeks, Lydians, and Scythians, this must also be the case with the Macedonians. Keep blindly copying the words of modern authors. It is clear that you don't have your own opinion on these matters and nor can you argue properly. Your motives are very clear. For an anti-Greek like you, Bernal's "Black Athena" should be the Bible! And don't you dare say that you are not anti-Greek because we can see the motives behind your posts.
As for the Lydians, archaeological evidence proves that there was indeed a Mycenean presence in Lydia, especially in Sardis. The early kings of Sardis may indeed have been Mycenean Greeks.
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Post by Artemisia on May 12, 2004 11:14:08 GMT -5
She is trying to falsify general history in order to "prove" her point that the Macedonians were not Hellenes. A lot of weak people who can't admit their mistakes use this method.
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Post by Artemidoros on May 12, 2004 16:52:52 GMT -5
Aria88 dear... I didn't know that you really belive that rubish about Alexander of Macedon being something else than a Hellen. For God's sake he belonged to Temenidae branch, a direct heir of Hercules. Like Scythian and Lydian kings were. I am not psychic yet I knew this thread was taking us to Macedonia Let me remind you what else was in the post you mentioned and to what it was replying. I had said: Here is Borza’s answer to the Greek archeologist Manolis Andronikos:
"This argument is true enough only as far as it goes. It neglects that the hellenization of the Macedonians might have occurred earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander, and can not therefore serve as a means of proving the Macedonians were a Greek tribe."
www.ancientmacedonia.com/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html
Whatever happened to all the effort to "prove" Philip was a barbarian guys? How far back do you want to move the goalposts? Would Upper Paleolithic suit you? You replied: The period at the begining of the Iron age (1100 - 900 BC) would be enough. No need for Upper Paleolithic.
dodona.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=history&thread=1077747133&action=display&start=60You admitted (just like Borza) that all your arguments about Alexander's Macedonians not speaking Greek, Philip being a barbarian etc. was utter rubbish. Macedonians could have been Hellenized up to 700 years before Philip but they were racially non-Greek. That was your last line of defence. No effort to produce any evidence of this supposed Hellenization of the Macedonians. I don't blame you, there isn't any As for their being racially alien to the Greeks, well, even your hero Badian admits that is not the case. I have already posted his words: This paper does not propose to bring up the much-debated old question of whether the ancient question of whether the ancient Macedonians "were Greeks." From the anthropological point of view, if suitably reworded, it could no doubt be answered; I suspect that, to the anthropologist, remains found in the areas of ancient Greece, Macedonia, and surrounding parts would not show significant differences.Artemisia is right again about you. You knew the battle was lost (unwinnable in any case) and after sounding the retreat you return for a guerilla attack. Fine with me. I love guerilla warfare You are not sure about the Lion of Judas, who lived in the 20th century but you are sure about mythical Andromeda? Of course... I should have realised You support the "Greeks are Ethiopians" theory! I goes nicely with all the other outrageous theories you propagate. Slavic Thracians, Illyrians, Etruscans etc. Linguistic ties between Slavic languages and Basques and so on. Are you one of those who accept the Gypsies of FYROM as Egyptians? ;D
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Post by Aria88 on May 12, 2004 21:48:22 GMT -5
It's late and I don't have the time to delve too deeply into the various interesting stances certain individuals are taking. First, though the Hittite empire ceased to exist, it didn't mean the people just disappeared into the proverbial thin air. They certainly constituted at least a portion of the subsequent Anatolian populations.
I never meant to turn this thread into a Macedonian=Hellene one. I'd rather start a Alexander=Monster thread.
As per the burning question, no, I don't believe the Macedonians were Greek. However, and this is a big however, they were certainly NOT Slavs, either.
Please, using Greek mythology to prove ethnic lineage is as deranged as the Christians/Jews/Muslims who do same.
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Post by Aria88 on May 12, 2004 22:09:16 GMT -5
BTW, I'm not an anti-Hellene. Skata! Anyone who calls me that is a big munyi! Artemisia, are you from Astoria? I once had kokoretzi at a Greek restaurant there. It's been a long time since I've had kokoretzi! Arguably the best Greek dish, aside from roast lamb and potatoes . I have to say, as I've had baklava from many different ethnic restaurants, the Lebanese do it better . Sorry. But there's always ghalaktiburiko. .
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Post by Aria88 on May 12, 2004 22:13:48 GMT -5
To clarify: my was meant as a salivatory smiley. I really do love kokoretzi and roast lamb.
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Andrea
Full Member
IM ROY JE DA JEST TO VESNIYO - May they all have a paradise this springtime
Posts: 119
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Post by Andrea on May 13, 2004 1:28:35 GMT -5
I didn't say a word about that book. As for my motives, they are pure as a dew. I just find contradicting statements and evidence about the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians. That is all. Concerning my aleged anti-Greekness... it is just your projection. Why do you think that if someone argues about the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians should be anti-Hellenic.
Does it mean that Demostenes and Trasymachus were anti -Hellenic when they explicitely stated that Macedonians were NOT Hellenes. Why don't you put an anti-Hellenic label to them too?
Artemidoros, that Philip was not a Hellene shouted Demostenes. No need for further proof. He stated that VERY explicitely as well Trasymachus the Larisean. "Should we Hellenes be slaves to Archelaus the barbarian"? A clear distinction. Archelaus is NOT a Hellene. Otherwise we should accept that there were Hellenes which were not Hellenes. We should accept a clear contradiction.
All other evidence is inferential.
In all historical texts there is a clear distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes as two separate ethinic groups.
Now we can proceed to argue to the infinity...but one MUST conclude that the question of ancient Macedonians is FAR from being resolved.
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Post by Artemidoros on May 13, 2004 5:53:31 GMT -5
Artemidoros, that Philip was not a Hellene shouted Demostenes. No need for further proof. He stated that VERY explicitely as well Trasymachus the Larisean. "Should we Hellenes be slaves to Archelaus the barbarian"? A clear distinction. Archelaus is NOT a Hellene. Otherwise we should accept that there were Hellenes which were not Hellenes. We should accept a clear contradiction. Here we go again. Obviously you don't want to understand. One more time. Demosthenes and Thrasymachus were enemies of the Macedonians. They spilt each other's blood. Their statements were politically motivated, just as Berisha supporters were calling the Albanian prime minister Fatos Nano a Greek a few years ago. Since you are not likely to accept what I say, here is what your own E. Badian says: In the second, a long tirade in the Third Philippic (9.30 f.), he claims that suffering inflicted on Greeks by Greeks is at least easier to bear than that now inflicted by Philip, "who is not only not a Greek and has nothing to do with Greeks, but is not even a barbarian from a place it would be honorable to name--a cursed Macedonian, who comes from where it used to be impossible even to buy a decent slave." This, of course, is simple abuse. It may have nothing to do with historical fact, any more than the orators' tirades against their personal enemies usually have. Just for the record, there are plenty of ancients who called the Macedonians Greek. Not least Alexander himself. I like the way you pick and choose. What is inferential is clearly highlighted by the very point you tried to make for the upteenth time. In your imagination. There is political and some times cultural distinction between Macedonians and a group of city-states. Not as ethnic groups. That was shown to you in the Macedonian's thread but you chose to run away because the evidence was stuck against you. OK start listing the texts for scrutiny if you like, one at a time. If you keep ignoring the evidence we will get nowhere, indeed. We answered every single thing you put forward and more. You did not even try in some cases to answer what we put forward. As an example, here is one again: Those who support the notion that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, "explain" the fact their names and placenames were Greek by claiming they were "influenced" by the Greeks. That they had borrowed their names because it was "fashionable". Of course there are those who claim the Macedonian names were not even Greek but I will let SOZ answer them. The Macedonians had Greek names for their months. Now how come "borrowed" names turned completely different at the lips of the "borrower" must be a miracle. Here the months in Attic
Hekatombion, Metageitnion, Boedromion, Pyanepsion, Maimakterion, Poseidion, Gamelion, Anthesterion, Elaphebolion, Munychion, Thargelion, and Skirophorion."
Here the months in Macedonian with the Roman equivalent. www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xvii.xxix.html Can you answer this please?
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