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Post by Artemisia on Apr 30, 2004 21:27:11 GMT -5
Labi, north Epirus was a Greek land before Albanians settled in it. Check ancient Greek, Roman, and Byzantine sources. There is no mention of Albanians living in Epirus (north or south) prior to the 12th century. As for what I said about some immigrants from Anatolia settling in Epirus, that is hardly a surprise. Byzantine rulers moved populations around. Epirus always had indigenous Greek settlers and they were just re-enforced by immigrants from Asia Minor in 1200s and again after the Turkish conquest. This does not mean that the Anatolian Greeks were the first Greeks to settle in Epirus. No! Epirus always had an indigenous Greek (Dorian) population. The Albanians moved south close to the fall of Byzantium and they were of course able to expend southward through help from the Ottomans.
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Post by labi on Apr 30, 2004 23:09:08 GMT -5
artemisia, was giving your father university education some form of persecution to you? did you know that in the district of gjirokaster greeks had better chances(ratio) of entering university than albanians? i dont think thats persecution. not at all. you guys even had greek schools on recognised minority areas such as yours===>dropulli. how about the greek musicians that came from greece to play for you guys on 70s? sorry but being communist i dont find that a for of persecution at all. himara will not have minority status simply because historically they were albanians. leting them become grekpphile is a dangourous move.
my grandpas name is jorgo. actually christian albanians such as me dont hate greeks as long as they are honest. i only hate the vorio epirus propaganda. other than that i dont think i would have ever have thoughts of greeks ever again.
ive already have made it clear that albanian do not equal epirots. i know that we invaded epirus starting from 1200s. and please dont make things up, if it wasnt for the turks we would have sawllowed epirus. it was actually the serbs that gave us the big propell south. after dusans empire broke, 10 years of fragile native rule was broken and albanian tribes formed their principalities. gjin bua shpata took arta and arkania. gjin zebenishi had gjirokastra and his tribe settled the drinos valleys(dropulli).
once the turks took over and things settled down is the begining of greek resettling lost territories. hobhouse who visited albania in early 1800 found no greeks in dropullis. the last town was delvinaki(not delvina the one on greek epirus).
so you figure out what happened.
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 30, 2004 23:56:39 GMT -5
Ummm, excuse me Dienekes, but the 100,000 thnic Greeks in Albania do not need to be Hellenized, they were and are Hellenic and speak the language perfectly and are part of Greek culture. ... You must be speaking of the Albanian and Vlach ORTHODOX population of south Albania when you talk about Hellenization. Why should you Hellenize them? They are not Greek anyway. With this kind of attitude the Greeks would have stayed in their Thessalian cradle forever. They wouldn't have bothered to Hellenize all the lands that they did, both in Greece and throughout the Mediterranean, because after all the local inhabitants "weren't Greek anyway".
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Post by Dienekes on May 1, 2004 0:01:52 GMT -5
did you know that in the district of gjirokaster greeks had better chances(ratio) of entering university than albanians? Do you assume a priori that all ethnic groups have the same inclination and ability to go to university?
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Post by labi on May 1, 2004 11:59:38 GMT -5
dienekes even if albanians lets assume are too lazy to go to university they are far more numerous than greeks in gjirokaster so the number of those willing to go would be almost the same. its simple, enver liked the greeks of dropulli because they were loyal. just as ali pasha used greeks. on the other subject i see you want to add some dinaric blood in greece.haha thanks but no thanks.
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Post by Artemisia on May 1, 2004 12:53:45 GMT -5
Do you assume a priori that all ethnic groups have the same inclination and ability to go to university? Greeks from Dropolis went to university because they were educated and smart people and came from educated families, not because the Albanian communists were kind to them. If it were left up to the Albanians, they would have liked to swallow up Dorpolis. In fact, Albanians would kill to marry a Dropolite but the latter didn't want to marry Albanians. Intermarriage only started to take place after the 1960s and it usually occured with people living in big cities. The Greeks of Dropolis had parents and grandparents who went to America and Europe to get an education before Albanians even knew where America or Europe was. Labi: The people of three villages in Himara are Greek. The inhabitants of Palasa and Drimadhes are very Greek and speak a very old Greek dialect. They are not Hellenized Albanians. I must say that the inhabitants of Vouno and Kiparo are Albanians who have become hellenized. I have spoken with Albanians from Vouno and Kiparo and they prefer to be part of Greece than part of Albania. In fact, I could say that those Albanians living in the above two villages are the most philhellenic of all Albanians. Dienekes: I will repeat that the Vlachs and Albanians of south Albania have nothing to do with the Greeks of South Albania. The Greeks of south Albania are not Hellenized Albanians; they are GREEKS with deep roots in Hellenism. My very own village goes back to at least 1100 and my last name is recorded in the village and region since at least 1500. Just because all three groups in south Albania (Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians) are Orthodox does not mean they can be molded into one ethnic group. Hellenization is a gradual process that takes place over hundreds of years. Since these people are not Greek now, you cannot say that they will become Hellenized after a generation or two. Perhaps after 300 or so years these people will become Hellenized and intermarry with Greeks but for the moment they are not Greek. There are (and were) several famous politicians in Greece whose ancestry is from Dorpolis, among them Ioannis Kappodistrias (from Corfu but his ancestors were from Dropolis) and Kostis Stephanopoulos (his mother has ancestry from Dropolis.)
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Post by labi on May 1, 2004 14:18:01 GMT -5
alpines usually stick to books since they cant handle hard physical labor.
qeparo are typical labs. lazy(like montenegrins) and good thieves. i dont know about this two villages and i find hard to imagine how they are greek. in any case for centuries they have been outnumbered and have married with orthodox labs which explains why most of them have dinaric faces. when i saw pics of those himara protester i was discussed seeing malok faces(who looked more albanian than me) shouting anti-albanian slogans.
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Post by Artemisia on May 1, 2004 15:09:13 GMT -5
alpines usually stick to books since they cant handle hard physical labor. Ha, ha, labi! That's the weirdest excuse I've ever heard! Actually, many of us ethnic Greeks are mostly Alpine and Mediterranean, with some Dinarics. Albanians are mostly good for physical labor and are not known for their intellect.
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Post by labi on May 1, 2004 15:24:55 GMT -5
i find albanians such as myself very lazy. i dont find albanians "not known for their intellect". just not commited, and want easy life.
most albanians live well even with hard jobs. but the alpines ones such as my dad get many health problems. he was given university education only in officer job and he didnt want to be a spy-sigurim whatever so he quit, he wanted something on lingtuistic stuff which he was good at.
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Post by Artemisia on May 1, 2004 19:39:15 GMT -5
i find albanians such as myself very lazy. i dont find albanians "not known for their intellect". just not commited, and want easy life. most albanians live well even with hard jobs. but the alpines ones such as my dad get many health problems. he was given university education only in officer job and he didnt want to be a spy-sigurim whatever so he quit, he wanted something on lingtuistic stuff which he was good at. Yes, most Albanians are lazy when it comes to higher education. No wonder the University of Tirana was filled with Greeks.....and it had nothing to do with being spies because no Albanian would trust and ethnic Greek to be a spy for them. I think Albanians are mostly good for physical work and musical instruments. They have really good violin and woodwind players.
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Post by labi on May 3, 2004 19:37:21 GMT -5
artemisia you do know that you would have to take whatever they give you dont you?
my father never wanted to do that sigurimi stuff. he was good at lingtuistic and thats what he wanted. he only took 2 years if englush in high school and remembered enough to get us through the new york airport(20 years since he took those highschool classes).
my uncle was the best math student in permet district. he was given school to university of tirana but it was taken out when he just arrived there. most likely so some dum kid with a uncle on high posotion(connections) fixed something.
thats how things worked than. however dropullis greeks were favored for some uniersity seats in lingtuistic fields(im not sure which field). enver was damn nice to you guys. be happy you didnt have the same fortune as some other albies or catholic albanians who were persecuted literally(they were a little religious fanatics).
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 1, 2005 19:38:21 GMT -5
Mushaci was a well known Albanian family in those days. Yet he himself claimed ancestry from past Epirus, Mehmet II stated the Turks were the ancestors of the Trojans. Is this all to be believed? It was about creating a legacy. Alb identity grew within the Despotate of Epirus and so they identified themselves as a people who descended from Epirotians... Also I wish you would look at the full quote instead of just a selective part. members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies."The only people which were "scorned" were the Albanians in the princes quote; "You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep[/b], and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house."[/i] As for John Kastriotis origins. The furthest back we can go is him actually. Any further is just speculation... www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htmHere is states(from italian records) There is no evidence for any further back. People seem to confuse Imathia in Macedon with Imatia in Northern Albania. Mat is here(Dark red); Kruja is here(again in dark red); Constantine Kastrioti was the ruler of Imatia, in Northern Albania, next to Kruja, which is believed to have come from the term Imadhia, meaning Greater in Alb. Not Imathia, in Macedonia. How would John be an heir of the region if he did not even come from there? It is well known that John Kastrioti gained the area called Mat and Kruja due to being an heir. Here is some more info on the character homepage.mac.com/crowns/al/avtxt.htmlBTW, todays theories regarding Scanderbeg family is that they came from north to south. Some theories were that they were an Alb family that migrated south of western Kosovo after the Battle of Kosovo. It is well known that Albs played a role in, on the Serb side. Today, the region of northern Albania is called “toka e Kastriotit” meaning the land of Kastrioti. We can date the name for this place since the Albanian Catholic Clergyman Peter Budi quote; www.albanianliterature.com/html/authors/prose/budi.html[/I] These are all regions of northern and central Albania. "Since everything in the Balkans has to be turned tyo political effect, both Greeks and Slavs have claimed Scanderbeg as one of themselves. The Greeks who do so rely on the fact that the name Kastrioti probably means that the family originated from a village with a Greek name of Castrion ('a little castle') of which there were many in the Byzantine Empire. This is as scholarly as proving that the Bishop of Chester must have been a Roman Catholic, and his ancestors Italian, because "chester" in a name is a proof of Roman occupation.
The claim that Scanderbeg was a Slav was first made by a German who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo(A Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castriota of Kanina. By overlooking the single letter 'i'(meaning 'and'), he produced Branilo Kastrioti as Scanderbeg's grandfather."Scanderbeg by Henry HogdkingsonNotes section Chapter 2:Emperors Despots and Chieftains Number 7: Scanderbeg's Origins Page 227[/b]
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 1, 2005 19:39:37 GMT -5
As for the Epirus issue. A dictionary from the era Dictionarium latino-epiroticum, Rome 1635 (Latin-Epirotic dictionary)[/b] by Frang Bardhi
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 1, 2005 19:59:26 GMT -5
-IOT is commonly added in Alb to mean a person from a certain area for Himare, we say "HimarIOT or when we refer to the himariot we often use Himarioti, this very much complies with the theory that Scanderbeg, George Kastrioti, came from the area of Kastrati in northern Albania.
As for John Kastrioti allying with the Serbs? Well originally, he had written a letter to the Venetians telling them that he prefered them in power instead of the Serbs, however when he asked for help, they did not respond. He then went to the Serbs, whos power was growing, he payed tribute to the church being built in Athos. Scanderbeg family was of three religions. First, he was a Catholic convert, his nephew was a muslim and part of his sons in law were orthodox.... The religion was used as nothing more then a political tool for the family..
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Post by Cerdic on Aug 2, 2005 6:54:33 GMT -5
Graeme-"Did you know that Albania was name of Scotland?" Nope,ALBA was name of Scotland... .. Alban was the name of Scotland. It was probably the name of the Pictish kingdom (or at least the Southern Picts) before Kenneth MacAlpine of the Dal Riada Scots became king of both the Scots and the Picts. The term Alban was in common use for the Scottish kingdom into the late Middle Ages and was used as a war cry by some Gaelic speakers ("Alban!") up to the Jacobite rebellions in the 18th century. As with "Scotia" or "Anglia," a Latinisation of the name Alban would inevitably be "Albania."
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