Luctor
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Luctor on Apr 23, 2004 18:57:23 GMT -5
There are few things that are FACTS... Albanians where never mentioned by Byzantines,Italians,Bulgarians or Serbs until 11 century.... They where first mentioned in book of Michael Ataliates,in his book of Byzantine history.He mention Albanians as mercaneries,which fought in Sicily under Georgios Maniakes,byzantine warlord. His army,later landed on teritory of what is now Albania,to destroy the rebel of Macedonian Slav Petar Odeljan. His army(with Albanians)fought for the city of Duraccio,and Via Egnatia(in Albania). He later rebelled against his emperor,and his army was cutt off,becouse navy has abandon him... So his(ALBANIAN)army stayed in northern Epirus(modern Albania),by promission of Slavic zhupans(earls)which ruled territory of what is now Albania.... Ataliatos says that Italians call them Albanians,becouse they came from historic province of ALBANIA in Caucasus... He also said that they are SCYTHIANS,which created some confusion(becouse of historic Scythians),however Albanians(modern)call themselves SHQIPTARI... Maniakes,before Sicialian and Balkan campaign,fought in Asia Minor and ARMENIA against Seljuk Turks.... Caucasian peoples,where besides Greeks standard part of Byzantine army... Albanians first came in Balkans in 1041... Timeline... www.geocities.com/egfrothos/BattleHonours.htmlQuotes... "April 989 AD-The Varangians aided Basil in his victory over Bardas Phocas' lieuetenant ,Delphinas at SCUTARI ,on the ASIAN SIDE OF BOSPHORUS.." SCUTARI is identical name with city in northern Albania...in Albanian language... And more.... "..A large number of Iberians from Georgia where in Phocas' army (see 1000 AD)" Caucasian Albanians(like modern ones) where IE people. They where chased by Seljuk Turks(ancestors of Azeris)in 11 century!! Caucasian Albania... www.bakililar.az/ca/english/Caucasian Alb.tribes where ... ALWANIS,GARGARS,GELS,UTIS,UDIS,LEGS..etc.. Their places had names...HERETI,KHAKHETI,SHEKI,KISH,SHUSHA,DERBENT...etc... Caucasian Albania was on teritory of Azarbeijan,east Georgia, east Armenia,Dagestan,south Chechnya... Azeris chased them in 11 century,which strangely correspond with Byzantine campaign in Georgia,Armenia,and with events above described... Albanian modern tribes are GHEGS,HOTIS,LABIS,TOSCS..etc... More on Caucasian Albania... www.zerbaijan.com/albania/caucasian-albania.htmlQuote... "Close to Sheki is village of ORTA ZEYZIT.." ;D This is pure Shiptar(Albanian)name... "Moysey Galakatuyski-- has written 'The history of Albania',where he described life,manner of life and culture of ancient Albans..." Now,the best catch... Ancient Albanians had their own letters.This was form of Caucasian runic letters.From them later has developed Georgian and Armenian alphabet... Now,Albanians(in Balkans)also had their own Alphabet(before Latinic).This was called 'Elbasani letter'. Some argue,that Elbasani letter has developed around 18 century.But how come that is almost identical with Caucasian Albanian letter... Albanian letters from Caucasus... karabakh-doc.gen.az/ru/azerpeople/ap010.eng.htmMake notice SPECIALLY with 'AGIRSHAG RUNIC LETTERS',and secondary with 'Turkish runes' of Saka/Saga tribe.. And then compare them with... www.omniglot.com/writing/albanian.htmElbasani letter... I have also made long topic on Balkans forums,about linguistic afiliations of Albanian and Chechen/Udish languages from Caucasus... But now,evidences are overwealming...
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Post by Dude McHappy on Apr 23, 2004 20:11:34 GMT -5
Truly pathetic! Keep up the good work in making serbs look like fools!
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Luctor
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Luctor on Apr 23, 2004 22:23:33 GMT -5
Haha,you dont even try to refute my claims in logic manner... Besides claiming that im pathetic,what else could you say... I believe that you didnt even read the links im posted...
Only thing that is really pathethic is your need to convince ignorant foreigneirs into your agenda that Albanians are 'ancients'.Offcourse that is prelude later to your political claims.
Unlike you,i never denied that im politically motivated.I am not hypocrite you you.But i DONT LIE,i always give links to NEUTRAL sources,and my claims can be prooved. However my claims on this forum are not lies.
What i have seen here(and in Balkan forums)from Albanians is total chaos of thories on Albanian origins...
So we have claims that Albanians are:Illyrians,Thracians,Dacians,Pelasgians,Celts,Illyro-Thracians,Illyro-Dacians,Thraco-Dacians,Etrurians,Etruro-Celts,Hittites,Hittito-Celts,Dardanians,Dardano-Thracians,Illyro-Thraco-Dacians..etc...
You simply WANT to believe that you are descendants of some ancient cultural nation,becouse modern Albanians dont have any culture or traditions before 15 century(Skenderbeg). And lets not forget political motives as well....
Labi's theory on Dacian origins of Albanians is based solely that Decebalus looked like Skenderbeg ;D ;D ,and that he had hat,that looks like Qeleshe...
Now,who is pathethic here?
Funny is that you people accept most absurd theories on Albanian origins(most important thing to proove that you are aboriginal ancients,regardless what ancient nation you claim),but you A PRIORI refuse EVIDENCES of Caucasian origins of Albanians.
I have posted in previous topics,in various forums LOGICAL reasons why Albanians cannot be descendants of either Illyrians,or Thracians...
There is no concrete evidence(in any form)of Illyrian,Dacian or Thracian origins of Albanians,besides pure speculations and assumptions.
Albanian surnames,language,customes,tribal system and race are similar or identical to those from Caucasus...
P.S
Please,dont equate me with Serbian people.I assure you that majority of Serbs dont give a damn about Albanians,or their origins.Actually it was Serbian anthropologists that created theory of possible Illyrian origins of Albanians(made by Jovan Cvijic).This was accepted by Austro-Hungarian scientists for propaganda purposes,and later accepted by Albanians themselves(who before that didnt have a clue about their origins)....
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Luctor
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Luctor on Apr 23, 2004 22:45:47 GMT -5
The link i posted about caucasian Albanian alphabet,seems that cannot be open in normal manner.. Use Altavista,then type 'Agirshag runic letters',and then type on link 'ap010'.This is the way to open the text(with pictures)...
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Post by Graeme on Apr 24, 2004 7:58:22 GMT -5
Isn't it possible that the people called Albanian today were known by different names by outsiders before the 11 century. What makes those Byzantines, Italians, Bulgarians and Serbs such experts on the Albanians and their origins? The name Albanian sounds like it comes from Latin or a Romance language. Did you know that Albania was the Latin name for Scotland? Saying that the Albanians come from the Caucasus or are Chechens is probably are like saying that they are wayward Goidelic Kelts from Scotland. Wales is the English name for the Brythonic Keltic country to their west; it means foreigner as does Walloon. If the Albanians call themselves Shqiptari, so what!
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Slaven
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SURG GASTOY I NAS - Cheers to the guests and us
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Post by Slaven on Apr 24, 2004 9:24:56 GMT -5
Interesting link: Especially pages 3-7 www.stanford.edu/~cakarz/articles/KaplanResuli-english.pdfA VERY honest interview of the member of the Albanian Acadamy of Sciences and Arts. This is a small extract from the text. Please read the whole text. "The oldest evidenced text in an albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angjelich, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engylli. The first book in albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in albanian, after the proclamation of the albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non Albanians.Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “Slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theofanos Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the albanian nationalists, or “marxists-leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.
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Post by Dude McHappy on Apr 24, 2004 11:04:52 GMT -5
Excuse me for a minute.... hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah (sorry I couldn't find an apropriate smily) ehemmm see this is why you slavs can be precieved as thickheaded sometimes. ONE SIMPLE QUESTION, why did all these Slavs and Vlachs and Turks etc contribute to our Albanian history if they weren't Albanians themselves??! Out of compation maybe, or were they made to write in our language at gunpoint, you know how viscius we Albanians can be ahahahahah you are not even worth replying to just like the other d'ckheaded slav in this thread. Where do you guys come up with these ideas??
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Post by labi on Apr 24, 2004 13:16:16 GMT -5
slaven are you a slav? i think so. who else could be that dum to believe that article. they have a picture of him in that article. didnt he claim he was skined 10 times? shouldnt he be living in buble now? i dont think your skin will regrow 10 TIMES. also he is not albanian. maybe a citizen of an albanian prison that is it. i wonder where did he receive all this facts in jail? eh? whats more suspicious is that he is a serbian from montenegro. burovic sounds albanian to you. and worse in the end i believe he says "I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland". you know those macedonians(if they even have the right to call themselves such, the name was copywriten 2000 years ago) are not very reliable. their latest theory...."stefan dusan was a macedonian king who conquered the serbs". live your dreams.
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Luctor
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Luctor on Apr 24, 2004 13:37:13 GMT -5
Graeme..."Isn't it possible that the people called Albanian today where known by different names by outsiders before 11 century?" True 'Albanian'is the name given to Albanians,by foreigneirs(Italians/Sicilians).Albanians call themselves 'Shqiptari'. They got the names 'Albanians',becouse they came from historic region of Caucasian Albania(most of Caucasus region had that name). I dont make connection between Caucasian and Balkan Albanians,based on name only... Actually,similarity between names is secodary to me.. My evidences are based on identical culture,alphabet,language,clan system and historical circumtances... Lets not forget that Balkan Albs,after they came there suffer from culturological and linguistic influences from surrounding nations... But basic essence of Albanians(Shiptars)is from Caucasus... ".What make those...Serbs such expert on Albanians and their origins?.." Most Serbs,i assure you in that ,feel only disgust towards Albanians,and they really and trully dont care about Albanians and their origins... Actually,my friends ask me,why im wasting my time with researching of Albanian origins... Why am I such an 'expert'.... Becouse i know well classic era in Balkans.Becouse i can read Latin and ancient Greek.Becouse i know there are only few Illyrian inscriptions(even those are disputable),becouse i have saw how you Albanians make forgeries of Illyrian fragments on your forums.Becouse Albanian claims are based on pure wishes and speculations,without any solid evidence.Becouse Albanian claims are not logical. And becouse of political use of those theories by Albanians,to justify terror and destruction of Christianity,Kosovar Serbs and European civilisation in this region... The purpose of Albanian theories is to say this... Labi-"the Slavs dont originally didnt live in balkans,yet i see today Serbia,Fyrom,Bosnia..Croatia,Bosnia.its called invasion" And all this from member of Nation that was mentioned latest in Balkan region. Serbia,Croatia,Bosnia,Bulgaria existed from 8 century,while FIRST ALbanian state was created in 1912 with 'little' help of Italy and Austro-Hungary. The youngest balkan nation claim that its oldest.Now thats pathethic. We have Serbian,Croatian,Bulgarian archaelogical findings from 7 century,we have castles,forts,cities,churches made by these nations,we have these nations mentioned by foreign writers.On other side we have absolutely no trace of Albanians whatsoever,until 11 century(when they were first mentioned). Now about Caucasus .... I wasnt so interested about Albanian Caucasian origins,until i saw documentary from Chechnya,where i saw Chechens,their customes and language... Not only Chechens,but Cherkez,Avars and others looks like close cousins of Albanians. After some research of Caucasus and Balkan Albanians,things became pretty clear to me. Not only this,but we know that Albanians came 1041 in Balkans with army of Georgios Maniakes as mercenaries and collonists into war-depopulated area of northern Epirus. www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai113_folder/113_articles/113_zaza_udi_language.html...Books written in Udi(remnants of Caucasian Alb). Written by GEORGI KECAARI.... ;D ;D Graeme-"Did you know that Albania was name of Scotland?" Nope,ALBA was name of Scotland... And i didnt say that Albanian ARE Chechens,just they are very similar(as all Caucasian peoples). I have post links,with unbiased sources,i have made my point.Try to refute me in logic manner,instead of ridiculing..
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Post by Dude McHappy on Apr 24, 2004 15:36:50 GMT -5
I see you are fond of logic, I can understad, a man always strives for things he does not have, so here is some real logic for you. Although I do not totally agree with it, it will show you how logic is used as a tool. So try an learn it, ignorant fool. members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/vg/vg.htmlread the article!!
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 24, 2004 23:50:39 GMT -5
Albanians are primarily of indigenous Balkan origins. It's possible that their ethnonym was adopted by an external source -- which would explain the absence of references to this ethnic group in antiquity, but any intrusive element was not numerically significant enough to alter the genetic makeup of the population. Also, the Albanian language is not strongly related to any living IE languages, making the possibility of it being a recent branch of an eastern IE stock quite remote. In other words, if Albanians had come from the Caucasus 1,000 years ago, then their language would be similar to the IE languages spoken at the Caucasus, but it is not.
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Luctor
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by Luctor on Apr 25, 2004 8:26:58 GMT -5
Dude McHappy,I have read the article about Thracians.Actually author here sates similarity between Thracian and BULGARIAN(Slavic).As for Albanian- Thracian words,funny enough,we can find similar patterns in SERBIAN.. For example... Illyrian city of Ulcinium,is now ULCINJ(Serbian) in Montenegro. IADER(written in Greek)-we have JADAR in western Serbia(near Drina). Vulgar Latin-Caballum,Rumanian-Cal,Albanian-Kal,Serbian-KONJ,English-Horse
This is evidence of absorbtion of Vlach(Latin)word in both Serbian and Albanian..
Vulgar Latin-Lucta,Rumanian-Lupt,Aromanian-Luft,Albanian-Lufte,Serbian-Lemanje,English-to fight
Another absorbed Aromanian word in Albanian vocabulary...
Vulgar Latin-Cubitum,Rumanian-Cot,Albanian-Kut,Serbian-Lakat,English-elbow
Other parts of this site actually make similarities between Bulgarian(slavic)names of places,and Thracian ones... Bracista-Vracista
Actually those few words in Albanian,are either addopted via assimilated Vlachs(like in Serbs as well),or they are simply IE common...
Dienekes,i didnt say that just Albanian ethnonym is similar to Caucasian,Albanians have similar surnames,places,and LANGUAGE with population of Historic Caucasian Albania..
About genetics,Dienekes you said yourself that Serbs in genetic sense are mostly Balkan aboriginals. For example Serbs are genetically similar to Romanians(non Slavic nation),also a Balkan nation...
Albanians,like Serbs have aboriginal Balkan elements,becouse they MIXED and they ABSORVE native Balkan populations... Albanians have absorbed large number of Vlachs(Balkan natives).Current president of Albania(Fatos Nano)is Vlach. Serbian writer Branislav Nusic(Alkibiad Nusha)was Vlach also...
Large number of Vlachs have been absorbed in Albanian and Slavic nations of Balkans...which can explain common aboriginal genetics...
Also some number of Serbs where Albanized,as in Kosovo.Some of Albanians there still remember their Serbian roots(Goranci).
But besides those absorbed elements,Albanian surnames are Caucasian,and basic part of Albanian vocabulary is Caucasian... Albanian surnames-Gegaj,Lekaj,Mehmeti,Ahmeti,Frasheri,etc...are all similar or identical with Caucasian surnames...
Albanians are originally Caucasian people,which have absorbed,by expansion large number of Vlachs and Slavsand Greeks which lived on territory of modern Albania...This mixing create genetic similarities between Albanians and other surrounding populations..
Typical of Caucasian IE languages is its isolation in IE branch...ARMENIAN,like Albanian is isolated in IE branch..
Dienekes-"..then their language would be similar to the IE languages spoken in Caucasua..."
Hehe...
Albanians have posted 10 or 11 words in their languages wich sound similar with Illyrian... I will now post far greater number off Caucasian words,from wich we KNOW what their means,and then compare with Albanian words that share same meaning...
I will use Chechen and Udish(last remnant of Caucasian Albanian dialect)...
Chechen=naana,Albanian=nene,English=mother Udi=Baba,Albanian=Babe,English=father Chechen=Ysh,Albanian=Ishin,English=they where Chechen=Shu,Albanian=Ju,English=you Chechen=Vasha,Albanian=Vella,English=Brother Udi=Haq,Albanian=Plak,English=Old Udi=Kalaka,Albanian=Qytet,English=City Udi=Bure,Albanian=Pare,English=watch Udi=Ar,Albanian=Aq,English=many Udi=Uxt,Albanian=Uje,English=water Udi=Mus,Albanian=Madh,English=big Udi=Gar,Albanian=Djal,English=son Udi=Dilag,Albanian=Deshiroj,English=wish Udi=Bakayn,Albanian=Behem,English=become Chechen=Iighana,Albanian=Inatosur,English=angry Udi=Besai,Albanian=Bej,English=make Udi=Os,Ose,Albanian=Pas,Pasi,English=after Chechen=Aa'kharkho,Albanian=Katundar,English=peasant Chechen=Samoo,Albanian=Shume,English=more Chechen=Aagan,Albanian=Eker,English=wild Chechen=Aaara Dalan,Albanian=Jashte Dal,English=Get out Chechen=Aaz,Albanian=Ze,English=Voice Chechen=Baar,Albanian=Arre,English=Nut Chechen=Bekhka,Albanian=Borxh,English=Debt,Obligation Chechen=Bil,Albanian=Fal,English=Sorry Chechen=Buha,Albanian=Buf,English=Owl Chechen=Cham,Albanian=Shijshem,English=Tasty Chechen=Yalla,Walla,Albanian=Eja,English=Come here Chechen=Chu,Albanian=Hyj,English=get in Chechen=Daago,Albanian=Djeg,English=burn Chechen=Dehndi,Albanian=Gjendhe,English=Cattle Chechen=Dain,Albanian=Drite,English=light Chechen=Daakhan,Albanian=Djendem,English=located Chechen=Delqa,Albanian=Dreke,English=Lunch Chechen=Dowgha,Albanian=Djeges,English=hot Chechen=Duq,Albanian=Aq,English=So many Chechen=Eskar,Albanian=Ushtri,English=Army Chechen=Ghaala,Albanian=Kala,English=Castle Chechen=Gaalat,Albanian=Gabim,English=Mistake Chechen=Gharlima,Albanian=Ngrirje,English=Freezing Chechen=Goola,Albanian=Gju,English=knee Chechen=Khalkhar,Albanian=Kercej,English=dance Chechen=Khan,Albanian=Kohe,English=Time Chechen=Khasbesh,Albanian=Kopesht,English=Garden Chechen=Kheeda,Albanian=Qetem,English=Cut Chechen=Khena,Albanian=Kohe,English=weather Chechen=Khila,Albanian=Qene,English=been Chechen=Khilam,Albanian=Kam,English=have Chechen=Kog,Albanian=Kembe,English=Leg,foot
Etc....
In Chechen 'AA' is often long 'E',and 'OO' is 'U'
So,Albanian is 'unique' amongst European languages,but it seems that is becouse Caucasian elements...
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on Apr 25, 2004 9:07:06 GMT -5
Dear Laby and Dude, those are the words of a member of the Albanian Academy of Sciences and Arts...not my words. So, you have to argue with him...not me.
Those are facts...not dreams. For instance the mother of Georgi Kastriot had name Vojislava...is that name Albanian? Come on...wake up and smell the coffe.
Secondly...I'm a Slovenian....not Macedonian.
You have to learn the truth once....and for all times.
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Post by Dude McHappy on Apr 25, 2004 9:29:16 GMT -5
First of I thought I'd write a long response and to totaly make you look like a fool, but you seem so thickheaded that it's not worth it, you would still not understand. I see you still have that list of misspelled and falisified albanian words comparing them to different caucasian languages. There is just no bottom for you I guess. If you can see any connections between words like: Udi=Haq,Albanian=Plak,English=Old Udi=Kalaka,Albanian=Qytet,English=City etc, then surley there is something wrong with you. So good luck in your quest you serbinised vlach, because you need all the luck you can get! Slaven, no need prove that you are dumber than Luctor, just read more my friend and open your mind.
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Slaven
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SURG GASTOY I NAS - Cheers to the guests and us
Posts: 56
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Post by Slaven on Apr 25, 2004 9:34:40 GMT -5
Dear Dude...you have to prove your claims...just by laughing and denying....you would do nothing. Actually, Kaplan Resuli -Burovich claims what Labi claims...that Albanians came from Transylvanian region...and that is Romania....former Dacia. So...what is the problem. The name of Georgi Kastriot's mother was VOJISLAVA...is that name Albanian or PURE SLAVIC??? Just answer...please. Read this please: Albanian language Britannica Concise Indo-European language spoken by five to six million people in Albania, Kosovo in Serbia and Montenegro, western Macedonia, and enclaves elsewhere, including southern Italy and southern Greece. There are two main dialect groups, Gheg (Geg) in the north, including Kosovo and Macedonia, and Tosk in the south. Albanian is the only extant representative of a distinct branch of Indo-European, whose pre-Roman Balkan ancestry is uncertain. The earliest written attestation is from the 15th century, though a standard orthography using the Latin alphabet was not adopted until 1909. The core vocabulary of Albanian is native, though in the course of its history it has absorbed many loanwords from Greek, Latin, Balkan Romance languages (see Romanian), Slavic languages, and Turkish. To cite this page: MLA style: "Albanian Language." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica. 25 Apr. 2004 <http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=380174>. APA style: Albanian Language. Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Retrieved April 25, 2004, from Encyclopædia Britannica. <http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=380174> Britannica style: "Albanian language" Britannica Concise Encyclopedia from Encyclopædia Britannica. <http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=380174> [Accessed April 25, 2004]. concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=380174
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