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Post by Tautalos on Mar 30, 2004 9:24:27 GMT -5
The classical culture was not dying, and authors like Iulianos, Iamblichus and Porphyry are a demonstration of that. As for the monks, they preservedo only a part of the classical culture. But what the Christians tried to destroy was much more than that. If person x wants to give 100 Euro to person y, and person z seizes that money from person x's pockets, gives 50 € to person y and keep the remaining 50€, should person x and person y be thankful to person z? I do not think so. Moreover, the monks and other Christians distorted part of the ancient Phylosophy, by mutilating the religious pagan part of it: they did that to the extent that, today, many universitarian students think that Plato was either an atheist, or a kind of proto-Christian, against the Gods, while, in fact, Plato was a defender of the traditional religion. Iulianos was right when he forbade the Christians of teaching the classical Phylosophy...
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Post by symmakhos on Mar 30, 2004 10:44:19 GMT -5
Hi Kynikos (and everybody else)! I'm honoured that you wish to use my dictum as signature!
Still, I think it's naive to blame Christianity for the demise of classical culture. It was a symptom, not the disease. Graeco-Roman culture was already flooded with eastern religions and tired to the bone. Brave souls such as Porphyry, Iamblichus, Libanius and the Symmachi did their best to carry on pagan culture and philosophy but they were men among the ruins. Apart from Gibbon, read also Spengler.
Also, I must object to RebelSoul, who equals Classical culture with Republican and Democratic polities. The best of the Greeks were always fiercly aristocratic and anti-democratic (Homer, Heraclitus, Pindar, etc.). And as we can see in present-day Europe, Democracy and free speech has little in common (much of the opinions expressed on this board are illegal in most European states). In ancient Hellas, Democratic Athens put Socrates to death for free thinking. And the Italian Renaissance states -- do you really think that they had non-authoritarian regimes?
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 30, 2004 18:10:09 GMT -5
The best of the Greeks were always fiercly aristocratic and anti-democratic (Homer, Heraclitus, Pindar, etc.). When Heraclitus was towering above philosophers, how easy would it have been for him to trust the sleepwalking crowds? He was mortal after all. Could Socrates have existed in Florence of the Medici? Or any tyranny, of any flavour? Slightly off topic but what is your view?
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Post by symmakhos on Mar 30, 2004 18:50:32 GMT -5
The Medicean age was probably too cynically realist for one such as Socrates -- he would have been ignored or, at best, laughed out of court. Or, of course, burned at the stake, should the church take notice. But as we know, the Renaissance did have its share of great men. And a "great" moralist too -- Machiavelli.
I think we shall never again see anything like the intellectual climate of Ancient Hellas (and I mean not only Democratic Athens, but all cultured Greek states in ca 700-300). I think it was the only time in history when men could think freely, entirely without preconceptions, ideological and religious blocks and taboos. We cannot do that even today.
I don't think this has much to do with political constitutions, and the black-and-white polarity between "tyranny" and "democracy" is naive. Too much democracy and egalitarianism is bad for culture, as it refuses to accept anything that aspires to be better than anything else. "Elitism" is a common invective in the academic community today - the height of absurdity!
All very off-topic indeed, but I'm kind of obsessed with the issue...
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 30, 2004 19:11:39 GMT -5
-- he would have been ignored or, at best, laughed out of court. I agree. To go back on topic, I think he would have been ignored or laughed at in 1st century Athens. Just as nobody would have bothered crucifying Christ today. Some ideas are only great at certain times. The time of the Greco-Roman world had gone. Luckily the seeds remained and real beauty is timeless. I can not blame Christianity but I do blame the Christians. Their vandalism is unforgivable.
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Ioulianos
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 30, 2004 20:59:30 GMT -5
Ioulianos Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" is the classic text on this. Nero of Rome was one representative example, I guess. This decline is supposed that started at 2nd Century A.C. As far as i know,Gibbon thought of this period as a second "golden century" of Antiquity.As Nero,there are three things i have to point:first,Nero is just an indivintual,you cant claim a cultural decline because of him.Second,he was lunatic and suspicious enough to kill several of his relatives,but the same did most of the later Byzantines emperors ,including Constantine "the Great".Third,he was in Rome when the big fire started and the fire indeed started from the Roman Temples...
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Ioulianos
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 30, 2004 21:34:04 GMT -5
This decline is supposed that started at 2nd Century A.C. As far as i know,Gibbon thought of this period as a second "golden century" of Antiquity.As Nero,there are three things i have to point:first,Nero is just an indivintual,you cant claim a cultural decline because of him.Second,he was lunatic and suspicious enough to kill several of his relatives,but the same did most of the later Byzantines emperors ,including Constantine "the Great".Third,he was in Rome when the big fire started and the fire indeed started from the Roman Temples... Well,i meant he was not in Rome.Anyway,lets see about this period of decline:After the death of the tyran Domitianus,the empire was ruled from 5 enlighted emperors in the row:Nerva,Trahan,Adrian,Antoninus and last but certainly not least Marcus Aurelius.Greece and especially Athens may have been in a political decline,but certainly not in a cultural one:The Academy of Athens and its seven different philosophical schools were donated by the state.Check the cultural production of this period:Plutarh,Arrian,Epiktitos,Pausanias,Kelsus,Lucian,Porfyri,Diogenis Oinoandeus,Marcus Aurelius,Lucretius and the rest of roman Epikureans,...
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Ioulianos
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Post by Ioulianos on Mar 30, 2004 21:47:19 GMT -5
why did Byzantium not experience "a dark age"? The fact that the eastern Roman Empire was more improved than the western medeval states doesnt exclude it from being a medieval "dark aged" state itself.Unless you can prove how peacefully was the state enchristianized or mention some great Byzantine philosophers, mathematicians,poets,doctors,astronomers,etc
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Post by kynikos on Mar 31, 2004 4:37:34 GMT -5
Hey, Symmakhos - chill More people are doing that now, than EVER before. Some are even trying to do it on this forum... "Free Thinker" has always been a difficult profession, but at least today there's nothing stopping you! Let's count our blessings. I think Artemidoros is right when he talks about the sleepwalking masses. We see how bad they are today, can you imagine how bad they would have been... then? People, you also have to remember that the Romans were expected to worship Ceasar as a God, so the change to a "blind" Christianity was quite easy for them. (We already know what happened to Christians that wouldn't worship ) Ioulianos, the presence of a couple of secondary (or even first class) philosophers in an academy tells us little about what the masses, the great unwashed, so to speak, were doing.
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Post by Artemisia on Mar 31, 2004 13:45:39 GMT -5
The Second Century CE was a great period for Hellenism....indeed one of the most productive. There were many Greeks in the Roman senate and this period was truly a Golden Age of Greco-Roman culture. I don't understand why many Greeks worship Constantine as a saint and not, say, Hadrian, who did so much for the Greeks and loved them dearly and whose influence is still seen in many Greek cities, especially in Athens. I guess Hadrian was anathema for the Christian church because he hated Christianity and persecuted many early Christians.
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 1, 2004 11:10:49 GMT -5
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Post by eufrenio on Apr 1, 2004 14:30:39 GMT -5
I am not sure about Christians, but modern leftists for a century have done certainly their share of destroying classical heritage. ;D
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Post by Artemisia on Apr 2, 2004 12:03:52 GMT -5
Symmachos, Hadrian's villa is truly an ancient wonder! It's a pity that most of the original statues were plundered in the 1600-1700s and now decorate the Villa D'Este and European museums. Some of the most famous Greek sculptures (e.g., Miron's Dyskovolos, the crouching Aphrodite by Doidalsas, the group with Harmodius and Aristogiton, a Cnidian Aphrodite, two satyrs by Praxiteles, etc.) were Roman copies of Greek originals commissioned by Hadrian and could only be found in his villa. Hadrian even imported his wine from Cnidus and Samos!
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 3, 2004 12:22:21 GMT -5
Yes, it's a pity. I visited the Villa d'Este also, and it has a lot of stolen goods from Hadrian's villa, in exciting but tastless baroque settings By the way, I thought Hadrian had rather a good rep among the early Christians? He wrote a famous letter that ensured that they were protected by the the law and should not be subject to random persecution. What is the evidence that he hated Christians (to get back on topic)?
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Post by Artemisia on Apr 3, 2004 15:12:32 GMT -5
It's funny how you see statues and reliefs of a particular young man in the Villa D'Este. Back in those days, they did not want to admit that this young man was, in fact, Hadrian's lover Antinoos. They tried to make people believe that he was actually Hadrian's illegitimate son! Hadrian tried to protect Christians and slaves early during his reign. However, because he disliked the Jews and because most Christians at that time were of Jewish descent, he believed that Christianity would be a major threat to Greco-Roman culture and paganism. In the later years of his reign, he persecuted Christians and drove the Jews out of Jerusalem, re-naming Judea.....Palestine.
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