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Post by xxx on Jan 28, 2004 4:44:36 GMT -5
This is a rather simplistic comparison of Portuguese, Castilian and Catalan. I took a text from the Portuguese book of Os Lusíadas, by Camões. I know I should have chosen a modern text in Portuguese, but this is the first that came to mind.
The "translations" are somehow inexact (also, I'm using modern Castilian and Catalan against old Portuguese), but it was fun. A modern text would provide a "fairer" and more realistic comparison.
Portuguese:
Nem deixarão meus versos esquecidos Aqueles que nos Reinos lá da Aurora Se fizeram por armas tão subidos, Vossa bandeira sempre vencedora: Um Pacheco fortíssimo e os temidos Almeidas, por quem sempre o Tejo chora, Albuquerque terríbil, Castro forte, E outros em quem poder não teve a morte.
Castilian:
No dejarán mis versos olvidados Aquellos que en los Reinos allá [desde](1) Aurora Se hicieran por armas tan altos(2), Vuestra bandera siempre vencedora: Un Pacheco fortísimo y los temidos(3) Almeidas, por quien siempre el Tajo llora, Albuquerque terrible, Castro fuerte, Y otros en los que poder no tuvo la muerte.
Catalan:
No deixaran els meus versos oblidats Aquells que en els Regnes allà [des de](1) Aurora Se feren(*) per armes tan alts(2), La vostra bandera sempre vencedora: Un Pacheco fortissim i els temibles(3) Almeidas, per qui sempre el Tajo plora, Albuquerque terrible, Castro fort, I altres en els qui poder no va tenir(4) la mort.
(1) not sure if here, Portuguese da translates as "from".
(2) Portuguese subidos would translate literally to Castilian subidos and Catalan pujats, but the sense would be "weak" in Castilian and even "weaker" in Catalan.
(3) in Castilian it can be temibles too; I think it could also be temits in Catalan.
(4) this is one example where Valencian sub-dialect would be different to Catalan. In Valencian it would be tindre instead of tenir. I don't know if this is the same for the rest of the Western Catalan dialect.
(*) "se feren" is in Valencian sub-dialect... in Catalan should be "es feren" ... mmhh.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Jan 30, 2004 18:25:13 GMT -5
A brief text in the dialect spoken by the peasants of Extremadura.
¿Ondi jueron los tiempos aquellos que pué que no güelvan, cuando yo juí persona leía<br>que jizu comedias y aleluyas también y cantaris pa’ cantalos en una vigüela?<br> ¿Ondi jueron aquellas cosinas que llamaba ilusionis, y eran á’specie de airinos que atonta me tenían la mollera?
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Post by xxx on Jan 31, 2004 4:00:29 GMT -5
Interesting. Most of the differences with normative Castilian sound like vulgarized language:
ondi -> dónde -> where pué -> puede -> puede güelvan -> vuelvan -> 3rd person plural, present subjunctive of the verb "to come/go back" leía -> leída -> "read", meaning a person with a cultural background pa' -> para -> for atontá -> atontada -> dizzy, silly
One word, jizu (hizo, "made" ) reminds me of the ladino language, the Sephardite dialect of Castilian. Or of the written aljamias (mozarabic language) of the jarchas.
In the Old Kingdom of Valencia, this Mozarabic Romance was known as algarabia, as stated in the books written during the Conquest by King en Jaume I (13th century) and later re-population, El Llibre dels Feits (The Book of Deeds) and El Llibre del Repartiment (The Book of Redistribuition). According to these accounts, the algarabias were hard to understand to the conquerors, so I presume they would be heavily influenced by Arabic and Hebrew words.
In areas like the Old Kingdom of Toledo, the Mozarab Romance survived after the Conquest and co-lived with Castilian language for a period of time. The population of the reconquered City of Toledo was formed up by the conquering Christians who came from Northern Castilla (plus so-called Francos, who were not exactly Frankish people, but anyone come from beyond the Pyrennees, supposedly many Occitans, but also others Germanics), and the Mozarabs.
Both in the City of Valencia and Toledo, still today exists a Mass known as Misa Mozárabe or Misa Visigoda, which is celebrated rarely and is spoken in the Mozarabic language, and which retains the "visigothic rite" (also known as mozarabic or hispano) prior to the pass to the "Roman rite".
These Romance Mozarabic languages before dying away, would have influenced the Romance Northern languages. More so in areas like Andalucia or Extremadura. So, sometimes, what we consider a "vulgar" or even "ignorant" way of speaking, may be due in part to a strong influence of these old languages.
In the Southern areas there is a general tendency to drop the d from the past perfect verbal forms (thus, leído -> leío). In some Northern areas, like in the Basque provinces, there is a strong tendency to drop the d when the form ends with o (eg. cansado -> cansao). In some areas they even change o with u (cansau).
NOTE: The language used in the Mozarabic Rite was not the Romance language but the Vulgar Latin.
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Post by xxx on Jan 31, 2004 7:50:30 GMT -5
JARCHAS The following part of a jarcha is a love poem written by Abraham ben 'Ezra (1092-c.1167). First the transliteration from Arabic scripts (*) to Latin scripts, by Menéndez Pidal in 1965: g'r kfry[w] km bbryw 'st 'lhbyb 'sb'r bwr yl mr[r]yw.
Next, the transcription, again by Menéndez Pidal: Gar ¿qué farey(o)? ¿Cómo vivreyo? Est' alhabib espero, por él morreyo.
Another transcription, this one by Frenk Alatorre in 1966: Gar, ¿qué fareyu?, ¿cómo vivrayu? Est' al-habib espero, por él murrayu.
Finally, the interpretation by Frenk Alatorre: Dime, ¿qué haré?,<br>cómo viviré?<br>A este amado espero, por él moriré.<br>and this is an interpretation translated into English, by Ganz in 1953: Tell me what I shall do, how I can live. I am waiting for my lover. For him I shall die
Notice that different scholars have given different transliterations, and then different transcriptions following on the different transliterations. Also, the interpretations are different accordingly. From the transliteration, the only words that I can't recognize, and so I presume they are of Arabic origin, are gar (translated as "tell me") and alhabib or al-habib (translated as "love" by some authors and as "friend" by others). (*) The Jarchas were small verses written in Romance language with Arabic or sometimes Hebrew scripts (not sure if Hebrew scripts, or if Hebrew with Arabic scripts), at the end of a poem in Arabic (or Hebrew), which was first started in Al-Andalus, known as Muaxajas or Muwasajas. The very same name of Jarcha comes from an Arabic word which means "ending" or "way out". But it seems that these small Jarchas verses were the aim after which the Muaxajas poems were written.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 2, 2004 9:51:09 GMT -5
This and your posts in the other thread have been very interesting. Some of the words there reminded me more of archaisms rather than vulgar Spanish.
Archaisms have remained in my country more than anywhere else in the Spanish speaking countries. But it’s a pity such words or expressions are associated with the low classes by a pseudo-literate bourgeois class.
Some archaisms used in Mexico:
Archaism------Standard Spanish----English translation
Adrede----------a propósito--------on purpose Ansina ----------así-------------------like this Se me hace-----me parece-------it seems to me Prieto-----------oscuro--------------dark Plática-----------conversación----------conversation Dilatarse--------demorarse----------to delay Liviano-----------ligero----------------light Orate-------------loco-----------------crazy Que tanto----------cuanto----------------how much
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Post by xxx on Feb 3, 2004 4:39:19 GMT -5
Archaisms have remained in my country more than anywhere else in the Spanish speaking countries. Roughly speaking, the Spanish spoken in the various American nations lightly departs from "European" Spanish starting at the moment when they gained the independence. One striking difference is that of Argentina, where they use a form of the old "vos" (Thou) instead of "tu" (You): 17th C. ---------- Argentina ----- Spain/Mexico/... vos teneis ------- vos tenés ----- tú tienes I've heard the Mexicans saying "Ustedes tenéis" instead of "Vosotros tenéis" or "Ustedes tienen". Something I've also heard in some parts of Andalucía. Yes, well, the same thing here. Adrede is still widely used in Spain (in here we also use aposta, which I suspect it's a Catalanism or Italianism). So is se me hace, but used as in "se me hace un poco pesado..." (I find it a bit tiring...). Liviano is also used at times. Dilatarse and platicar can be seen, though in very rare occasion and only as a cultish form (the first more usual than the second). For the rest, I have never heard them, and some (like orate) sound to me like just Mexican Spanish.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 4, 2004 13:10:38 GMT -5
The “vos” isn’t only used in Argentina. It can be heard in Colombia, Guatemala and the southern Mexican state of Chiapas.
I’ve never heard “Ustedes tenéis” in Mexico. The “Vosotros” is only used during the Mass by some priests but never in normal conversations.
Not really. They are words that were once used in Spain.
Something that I really find anoying about Iberian Spanish is the misuse of the pronoun "le". Example: "Le he visto"(I've seen him/it) instead of the more correct "Lo he visto".
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 4, 2004 17:04:17 GMT -5
The first written record of Spanish (even though some hippie like groups claim it’s not Castilian but Navarran) and Basque were even made in the same document. The 'Glosas Emilianenses' is the first known document to have been written in the Spanish language. A mediaeval document from the Monastery of San Millan de la Cogolla, it dates from the year 964. Basque is first attested in the Xth Century, in the 'Glosas Emilianenses', side by side with Romance glosses. In fact, many speakers of the neighbouring Romance languages (Castilian, Navarro-Aragonese and Gascon) were bilingual, and some traits are shared just by them (e.g. there's no /v/ sound in any of them). www.geocities.com/msanzledesma/hispania.htmLatin Text:Karissimi quotiens cumque ad eclesiam uel ad sollemnitatem martirum conuenti fueritis... cum Dei adjutorio jmplere contendite [tenete]... Sunt enim plurime, et precipue [plus majus] mulieres, qui jn eclesia garriunt... Adtendat [gatet] unusquisque [quiscataqui] ne munera accipiendo alterius causam malam faciat suam penam si jnjuste judicauerit; accipe pecunie lucrum et jncurrit [kaderat] anime detrimentum. Non se circumueniat qui talis est [nonse cuempetet elo uamne ensiui]; jn illo enim jmpletur quod scriptum est: jn quo judicio judicaueritis judicauimini. Forsitam [alquieras] quando jsta predicamus aliqui contra nos jrascuntur et dicunt: jpsi qui hoc predicant hoc jmplere dissimulant [tardarsan por jnplire]; jpsi sacerdotes, presuiteres et diacones talia plura conmittunt [tales muitos fazen]; et quidam, frates, alicotiens [alquandas beces] uerum est, quod pejus est. Nam aliqui clerici et jnebriari se solent, et causas jnjuste subuertere [transtornare] et jn festiuitatibus causas dicere et litigare non erubescunt [nonse bergudian tramare]. Set num [certe] quid toti condemnandi sunt... Nos jpsos pariter [aduna] arguimus [castigemus];... admoneo [castigo]; jn¡ diem judicii duppliciter crimins [peccatos] reus esse timeo; ad mensam cordis uestri offero [dico] legem diuinam, quasi [quomodo] Domini mei pecuniam [ganato]. Christus cum uenerit sacerdotibus, jpseest exacturus [de la probatione] usuram [ela legem]... Saluatoris precepta jnsinuo [jocastigo]... qui et nobis tribuat libenter [uoluntaria] audire quod predicamus... abjubante domino nostro Jhesu Christo cui est honor et jmperium cum patre et Spiritu Sancto jn secula seculorum The texts in [] are also annotations in Romance. Romance annotation:This is the largest example of these glosses in “proto-Spanish”. Conoajutorio de nuestro dueno, dueno Christo, dueno Salbatore, qual dueno get ena honore equal dueno tienet ela mandatjone cono Patre, cono Spiritu Sancto, enos sieculos delosieculos. Facanos Deus omnipotes tal serbitjo fere ke denante ela sua face gaudioso segamus. Amen. Modern Spanish translation:Con la ayuda de Nuestro Señor, Señor Jesucristo, Señor Salvador, el cual Señor está en el honor y el cual Señor tiene el mandato con el Padre y con el Espíritu Santo por los siglos de los sig los. Háganos Dios omnipotente tal servicio que ante su haz gozosos sigamos. Amén. Basque annotation :jzioqui dugu
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Post by citadel on Feb 4, 2004 17:12:35 GMT -5
Another old form of "Spanish" is the Ladino of Sephardic Jews. Many words that include a silent h in Castillian still have the f phoneme.
Do any of the archaic Mexican dialects retain any f or even 'h' sound? (I assume the 'h' in Spanish once represented the sound it does now in English or German). This was likely before the shift of 'x' from the "sh' to the 'h'-like sound of modern Castillian.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 4, 2004 17:24:06 GMT -5
Another old form of "Spanish" is the Ladino of Sephardic Jews. Many words that include a silent h in Castillian still have the f phoneme. Do any of the archaic Mexican dialects retain any f or even 'h' sound? (I assume the 'h' in Spanish once represented the sound it does now in English or German). This was likely before the shift of 'x' from the "sh' to the 'h'-like sound of modern Castillian. Actually Ladino is the closest thing you get to medieval Spanish. Mexican Spanish variations have the silent h just like Iberian Spanish. However the archaic sound of the ‘x’ is still used in Mexiso for some words of Amerindian derivation such as Xola, Uxmal, Xalostoc, Mixiote etc. I don’t know if this happens in Spain but some names and surnames here are still written like in medieval Spanish. Example Xavier/Ximénez instead of Javier/Jiménez and Ximena for Jimena.In fact both the J and the X are used down here for this names, so it's common practice to ask the correct spelling when one has to write these names.
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Post by Melnorme on Feb 4, 2004 17:32:12 GMT -5
Another old form of "Spanish" is the Ladino of Sephardic Jews. Many words that include a silent h in Castillian still have the f phoneme. The quote underneath my name is in Ladino.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 4, 2004 17:41:50 GMT -5
“Quien much pensa, no se le fada Yerusalaayim”<br> I assume that in modern Spanish it would be:
“Quien mucho piensa, no se le hará Jerusalén”
"He who thinks a lot, to him Jerusalem will not come true"
or
"He who hesitates, to him Jerusalem will not come true"
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Post by xxx on Feb 5, 2004 7:41:18 GMT -5
The 'vos' isn't only used in Argentina. It can be heard in Colombia, Guatemala and the southern Mexican state of Chiapas. Also in Paraguay and Uruguay. Yes, may be the persistent use of "Ustedes" in Mexico confused me. While it's still common in Spain, I find that more young people avoid using "Usted", which is sad. I hate it when a person of age tells me "por favor, trátame de tú... tutéame". It is annoying. It's called "leísmo", but it is correct there. leísmo and laísmo are common in Madrid.
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Post by xxx on Feb 5, 2004 7:49:02 GMT -5
Basque is first attested in the Xth Century, in the 'Glosas Emilianenses', side by side with Romance glosses. In fact, many speakers of the neighbouring Romance languages (Castilian, Navarro-Aragonese and Gascon) were bilingual, and some traits are shared just by them (e.g. there's no /v/ sound in any of them) Yes, Cantabrians and Basques seemed to have some problem with the fricative sounds, and this reflects in the Castilian language. Apart from the lack of a fricative /v/, both Castilian and Gascon languages share the substitution of the initial F for a silent H. It surprised me to see that Gascon goes to greater lengths than Castilian: Castilian -> Fiesta Catalan and other Oc languages -> Festa Gascon -> Hesta
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Feb 5, 2004 8:46:02 GMT -5
I also dislike it. I think young and not so young people have had a process of abandoning the “Usted”. I still use it for people I don’t know or whom I respect even though I’m mocked sometimes by my friends and family because of it . That’s something funny about Mexican Spanish. In singular they speak with the informal “Tú” and in plural they always do it with the formal “Usted” instead of the informal “vosotros”. Perhaps it’s correct in a regional level. Because finally the academic rules are changed by the acceptance on the street. But it still sounds very weird and bad to me. Here’s something else.The Lord’s Prayer in Aranese (Aranés), one of the least known languages in Iberia. AranésPaire Nòstre qu'ei ath cèl, qu'eth tièu nòm sia sanctificat; qu'eth tièu règne venga. qu'era tia volontat sia hèita ara tèrra coma ath cèl. Dòna-nos agüèi eth nòstre pan de cada dia, e perdona-nos es nòstres ofènses coma nosàti perdonam es d'aqueths que nos an ofensats e no nos deishes pas caure en tentacion; mai deliura-nos deth malin. Atal sia. SpanishPadre Nuestro que estás en el cielo, santificado sea tu nombre, venga a nosotros tu reino, hágase tu voluntad en la tierra como en el cielo. Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día, y perdona nuestras ofensas como nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden. No nos dejes caer tentación<br>y líbranos del mal. Amén. Aranese is a variant of Occitan spoken in the Aran Valley since the 16 century. This territory, comprising 620 Km , joined Catalonia in 1175 through the Treaty of l’Emparança. It was to change hands sev- eral times during the 12 century until 1313, when the Aranese de- cided by popular vote to stay within the Catalan-Aragonese crown, and Jaume II bestowed a set of privileges known as Era Querimònia on the valley; a true Magna Carta for Aran. In 1411, the valley was integrated by agreement into Catalonia. The Aran Valley is the only territory where Occitan is spoken where it has official status and institutional protection. As a result, it is also the Occitan-speaking territory where the language is most alive and known among the population Three languages are spoken in the valley: Occitan (generally known as Aranese), Castilian and Catalan. A high percentage of the valley's inhabitants also speak French. According to the 1991 census, 5,552 persons (92_3% of the population over two years of age) know Aranese, and 3,361 (60_9%) can speak it. www.caib.es/conselleries/educacio/dgpoling/user/catalaeuropa/angles/angles9.pdfSomething interesting about the income of the Aranese: The standard of living in the Aran Valley is above the Spanish average, with per capita savings and income relatively high and the unemployment rate fairly low. The average income of Aranese speakers was slightly higher than that of non-speakers. www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/occita/an/i1/i1.html
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