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Post by Artemisia on Nov 25, 2003 13:45:42 GMT -5
OK. Answer poll question and comment.
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 26, 2003 3:09:26 GMT -5
OK. Answer poll question and comment. I've always found it strange that most Trojan heroes had Greek names. While the later Greeks certainly viewed the Achaeans as Greeks and the Trojans as barbarians, I don't think there's anything in Homer himself to warrant that view. Homer wrote of course before the distinction between Hellenes and barbarians came into common usage.
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Post by Yiannis on Nov 26, 2003 8:52:07 GMT -5
On the other hand Dienekes, don't forget that the ancient Greeks tended to Hellenize the names of the foreign people they referred to. Example: Dareios, Mardonios etc. These were not the real Persian names but the way they sounded in Greek. Same with their Gods. The Greeks tended to correspond the Gods that the "barbarians" worshiped to their own.
So it makes sense that Homer "Hellenized" the names of the trojans as well as their religious believes. Moreover, let's not forget that he lived 4 centuries after the events took place. I don't think the Trojans were Greek.
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 26, 2003 11:10:22 GMT -5
I've always found it strange that most Trojan heroes had Greek names. While the later Greeks certainly viewed the Achaeans as Greeks and the Trojans as barbarians, I don't think there's anything in Homer himself to warrant that view. Homer wrote of course before the distinction between Hellenes and barbarians came into common usage. Actually, I haven't seen any ancient source that describes the Trojans as barbarians. The allies of the Trojans are "barbarians" but the Trojans are not mentioned as such. Strange, no?
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 26, 2003 13:07:46 GMT -5
Does it seem strange to you that a Hittite letter written by the king mentions an "Alaksandu of Wilusa" who is often equated with Alexandros (the other name for Paris) of Troy? In any case, Alexandros is definately a Greek name and not Luvian or of any other origin. So, Dienekes, we have a Greek name in the Troy region. What do you make of Alaksandu of Wilusa?
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Post by Artemidoros on Nov 26, 2003 18:13:48 GMT -5
On the other hand Dienekes, don't forget that the ancient Greeks tended to Hellenize the names of the foreign people they referred to. Example: Dareios, Mardonios etc. These were not the real Persian names but the way they sounded in Greek. Same with their Gods. The Greeks tended to correspond the Gods that the "barbarians" worshiped to their own. So it makes sense that Homer "Hellenized" the names of the trojans as well as their religious believes. Moreover, let's not forget that he lived 4 centuries after the events took place. I don't think the Trojans were Greek. The name Kassandra is Greek (at least partly). Hector is probably Greek too. Priam is probably not. Even if all the names were Greek it does not mean they were Greek. There were foreigners who used Greek names (at least in Hellenistic times). Also Troy was controlling an important trading route. For business purposes they could be using more than one names. How many Jimmy's bars are there in Greece, belonging to a ..Dimitris? I think the evidence is inconclusive but if anything, it points to a cosmopolitan group of mixed origins. Personally I believe the hard core of the Trojans were Phrygian because of the location. It is very likely they were bilingual (they seemed to converse with the Greeks fluently without the need of translation). Whatever the truth, the Greeks did not look down on them so they probably had the cultural advantage.
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 26, 2003 21:59:59 GMT -5
Ok, I buy that, but it still doesn't answer the problem of the name Alaksandu of Wilusa.Alaksandu can't be an Anatolian name. It is Greek. The Phrygians are usually believed to have settled the Troad AFTER the Trojan War. This leaves us with three possibilities- the Trojans were either:
a) indigenous Anatolians b) Pelasgians c) another Hellenic group
More on this soon.
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Post by Satyros on Nov 27, 2003 15:10:40 GMT -5
First of all, the Trojans werent mythical. They were very much real. The Trojan war was a real happening.
Alexander the Great when he reached Asia Minor, he honoured the Gods on Achilleus tomb. Eric Sliman discovered the ruins of Troy in Asia Minor.
There are many reasons to believe that the Trojans were similar to Greeks. When i say Greeks, i am refering to all people speaking Greek and living in the wider Greek area.
Why should we believe that? Well, the Trojans believed in the same Gods as other Greeks. Specifically, Apollon and Aphrodite were their allies, but Athena, Hera were their enemies, as they took the side of the Greeks in that war. Zeus was also on their side for some time.
If we search the geneaology of the Trojan first fathers, like Dardanos, they descend from the same roots as other Greeks do. I think that Troy was either one early Greek colony of the West side of the Aegean, or that the Trojans were Greeks mixed with other native Asia Minor populations. The Trojans have many non-Greek allies, but they also have allies from the other side of the Aegean, like the Thracians.
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 27, 2003 19:49:54 GMT -5
First of all, the Trojans werent mythical. They were very much real. The Trojan war was a real happening. Alexander the Great when he reached Asia Minor, he honoured the Gods on Achilleus tomb. Eric Sliman discovered the ruins of Troy in Asia Minor. Correction: That is Heinrich Schliemann. We can't insult the father of Archaeology!<grin> Yes, he discovered the ruins of a Bronze Age city (actually several cities) supposedly called Troy in ancient times, but how do we know that a battle took place here between Achaeans and Trojans? Every archaeologist knows that there is really no evidence that Achaeans destroyed any of the Troys. If we search the geneaology of the Trojan first fathers, like Dardanos, they descend from the same roots as other Greeks do. I think that Troy was either one early Greek colony of the West side of the Aegean, or that the Trojans were Greeks mixed with other native Asia Minor populations. The Trojans have many non-Greek allies, but they also have allies from the other side of the Aegean, like the Thracians. Yes, and the Thracians were not Greeks. I know where you're going. I am also with you on this. It seems very, very strange to me that there is so much similarity between the two places. I was talking to my Archaeology professor the other day and he told me that the German excavators found a Mycenaean cemetary on the Hisarlik area. Either these were the "heroes" of the Trojan War who were buried in that area or the region of Troy was settled by Greeks long before it is believed to have been settled. I believe that there is a strong possibility that the Trojan war is based on many smaller wars in which Mycenaeans tried to colonize the NW coast of Anatolia and the struggle between the Myceneans and native Anatolians for control. The stories came down as an epic war between the two sides.
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 27, 2003 20:12:02 GMT -5
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Post by Satyros on Nov 27, 2003 20:17:38 GMT -5
-----------Correction: That is Heinrich Schliemann. We can't insult the father of Archaeology!<grin>-----------
Yeah, whatever
---------Yes, he discovered the ruins of a Bronze Age city (actually several cities) supposedly called Troy in ancient times, but how do we know that a battle took place here between Achaeans and Trojans? Every archaeologist knows that there is really no evidence that Achaeans destroyed any of the Troys.--------
I think Homer, is more than enough proof
--------Yes, and the Thracians were not Greeks.----------
Why do you say that? Have you researched all ancient sources concerning Thracians? Do you know what Gods they believed in? Do you know the connections with the rest of Greece? Do you know the historical acounts of Thracian kings and heroes? I think you should research those things, before making such statements
----------I know where you're going. I am also with you on this. It seems very, very strange to me that there is so much similarity between the two places. I was talking to my Archaeology professor the other day and he told me that the German excavators found a Mycenaean cemetary on the Hisarlik area. Either these were the "heroes" of the Trojan War who were buried in that area or the region of Troy was settled by Greeks long before it is believed to have been settled.---------
I wouldnt trust my professor very much if i was in your place. Trust your instict instead.
-------------I believe that there is a strong possibility that the Trojan war is based on many smaller wars in which Mycenaeans tried to colonize the NW coast of Anatolia and the struggle between the Myceneans and native Anatolians for control. The stories came down as an epic war between the two sides.-----------
My personal opinion is that Greeks used to create colonies around the Mediteranean (not only there) creating a central city, mostly by the sea, so that they could trade with the inside of the land. Eventually many of these colonies, despite the Greek inhabitants, were in time absorbed into the larger masses of natives. Or maybe the Greek cultural element eventually was mixed with the native elements. This is i believe the case with Troy. An original metropolitan rich city of Greek descended settlers, culturally the same with other Greeks, eventually became antagonistic with mainland Greece and fought the Greeks of the other side of the Aegean, with the help of Asia Minor non-Greek, or partly Greek, or partly culturally Greek allies .
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 27, 2003 20:18:12 GMT -5
Surprisingly, recent geological work on Troy seems to confirm Homer's account. I'm not denying that there was a city called Troy, but how do we know that a real battle between the Achaeans and Trojans actually took place. And who were these Trojans? It is likely that Homer just visited the place in the Dark Age and recorded the appearance of the terrain. I added the end </quote> (replace the <> with [ ]). If it's not present, then the quote doesn't show properly
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 27, 2003 20:31:05 GMT -5
The geologists in the links above have shown that the ancient geology of Troy agrees with Homer's description of the Homeric battlefield. This is a clue to the accuracy of the Homeric account.
I think it's very likely that the Greeks did campaign in the Troad and destroy Troy just as the ancient account holds. Certainly, the story was embellished with imaginative details, but I believe it. It should also be noted that the Catalogue of Ships has very close parallels to our knowledge of the Mycenaean world and could very well be a roster of the forces participating in the campaign, although the numbers may be just schematic.
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Post by Artemisia on Nov 27, 2003 20:32:03 GMT -5
-----------Correction: That is Heinrich Schliemann. We can't insult the father of Archaeology!<grin>----------- >Yeah, whatever Why are you so mean today? Heinrich Schliemann was a great man. If it weren't for him we wouldn't know of Troy, Mycenae and Tiryns today, or at least we would have discovered it much later. ---------Yes, he discovered the ruins of a Bronze Age city (actually several cities) supposedly called Troy in ancient times, but how do we know that a battle took place here between Achaeans and Trojans? Every archaeologist knows that there is really no evidence that Achaeans destroyed any of the Troys.-------- I think Homer, is more than enough proof It would be nice if you took a few Archaeology classes before stating this. The Iliad is an epic poem.....it is not a historical work! --------Yes, and the Thracians were not Greeks.---------- Why do you say that? Have you researched all ancient sources concerning Thracians? Yes. And they all say that the Thracians were NOT Greeks. Give me ONE ancient source were the Thracians are said to be a Greek people. I'm sorry if you are from Thrace, but only the Greek colonies on the Aegean and Black Sea coast of Thrace were Greek (I may also add Phillipopolis and a few inland Hellenistic settlements). The Odrysians, Getae, Dacians, and many other Thracian tribes were not Greek. ----------I know where you're going. I am also with you on this. It seems very, very strange to me that there is so much similarity between the two places. I was talking to my Archaeology professor the other day and he told me that the German excavators found a Mycenaean cemetary on the Hisarlik area. Either these were the "heroes" of the Trojan War who were buried in that area or the region of Troy was settled by Greeks long before it is believed to have been settled.--------- I wouldnt trust my professor very much if i was in your place. Trust your instict instead. My professor is a notable Bronze Age archaeologist! I would not trust someone who is NOT knowledgable about these things. And yes, I do have my own opinions but any opinions have to be based on professional as opposed to other sources.
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 27, 2003 20:46:50 GMT -5
The Thracians were considered as barbarians by the Ancient Greeks. "Thracian" was a blanket term for many tribes of the East Balkans. The Thracian coast was colonized by south Greeks and later incorporated into the Macedonian kingdom. In Hellenistic times, what is today Greek Thrace as well as Turkish Thrace and a good part of Bulgaria would be Greek-speaking primarily. The more northern parts of Thrace probably remained relatively un-Hellenized, which is why after the Roman conquest they were converted into Latin speech.
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