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Post by Vimara on Mar 14, 2004 10:36:11 GMT -5
are you serious? why do you want to break up your own country?
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Post by Necronomicom on Mar 14, 2004 18:06:22 GMT -5
why shouldn't we? why do you want to break up your own country? cultural and racial differences, and none of us believe in the myth of the great Brazilian multiracial society. |
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Post by Herzeleid on Mar 15, 2004 12:25:41 GMT -5
What's so absurd with the idea of separatism in a country as big as Brazil???
If in a much smaller country like spain people have great cultural (and even ethinc) differences, try to imagine how it's like in Brazil.
There isn't one big homogeneous brazilian people, as the media and the government love to say.
Separation already exists. There's a huge gap here. A social, economic, cultural, and ethnic one. So, I think it's rather natural that people would like to 'officialize' that gap.
p.s. I am not a separatist, but I think that their ideals are reasonable.
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Post by Vimara on Mar 15, 2004 16:12:41 GMT -5
"cultural and racial differences"  huh lets called it what it really is (extreme racist fantasies) anyone who shed blood for bazil you disrespect the honor of the dead. lessons in history should teach you. best example i can give you is the american civil war and aslo the vote of 17(somthing i forgot right now) to unite america under one language and one flag. the banner of brazil in my opinion should be the greater cause not breaking up the country for petty causes. look at your country you speak one language have one commen history. am i wrong??? in my opnion? herzeleid the forefathers of spain are the same. "celtibeirans" end of story. everything else is minor. look at great briton you can say the same but the british think of unity and for the greater cuase for great briton. "Separation already exists. There's a huge gap here. A social, economic, cultural, and ethnic one. So, I think it's rather natural that people would like to 'officialize' that gap." all minor. you have one language one flag.again best exemples look at america and great briton. |
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Post by Necronomicom on Mar 15, 2004 18:06:57 GMT -5
"cultural and racial differences" huh lets called it what it really is (extreme racist fantasies) some people call it that way  lessons in history should teach you. best example i can give you is the american civil war and aslo the vote of 17(somthing i forgot right now) to unite america under one language and one flag. American civil war was a White Vs White conflict, a very different situation. the banner of brazil in my opinion should be the greater cause not breaking up the country for petty causes. look at your country you speak one language have one commen history. am i wrong??? in my opnion? So what if we speak the same language? Brazil is a European colony, blacks and indians were never considered important, and things haven't changed that much, if we don't separate ourselfes now all the remaining Euro-Brazilian regions will be assimilated by the dark population, ex-Euro states like Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, and São paulo already been assimilated by those damn nordestinos. you are Portuguese right? would you allow your country to completely open its borders to Angola and Brazil?? They all speak the same language... |
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Marina
Full Member
Just call me French-Hammerette!
Posts: 245
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Post by Marina on Mar 15, 2004 22:43:13 GMT -5
American civil war was a White Vs White conflict, a very different situation. Agreed. However, American whites in the North and the South were VERY different, in terms of culture, way of life, etc. By the way, multiculturalism in America sucks, too! ;D  |
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Post by alex221166 on Mar 16, 2004 9:15:31 GMT -5
What's so absurd with the idea of separatism in a country as big as Brazil??? It is absurd considering the history of the country and considering the blood spilled by the tens of thousands of conquistadors, settlers, and bandeirantes that shaped Brazil's borders. To talk about Brazilian secession is a crime. Not only against Brazil itself, but also against Portugal. It's like a father being told by his son that he is going to dump his girlfriend to adopt the gay lifestyle and drop out of college to go work in McDonald's for the rest of his life. |
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Post by Silveira on Mar 16, 2004 10:26:12 GMT -5
Most of the people who support the separation of southern Brazil (they are very few) are the ones who criticize the Portuguese colonization of Brazil the most. They are complexed people who wished Brazil was colonized by Germans, English (like Jamaica) or Dutch (like Surinam) rather than by the Portuguese.
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Post by Vimara on Mar 16, 2004 12:49:44 GMT -5
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Post by Silveira on Mar 16, 2004 13:07:41 GMT -5
Thank you Iberian Bull. D. Luiz de Orleães e Bragança is a descendant of the Kings of Portugal. Here is an excellent link which I found in the pro-monarchy site you provided. www.projetoreeducar.org.br/Projeto Reeducar Rua Itápolis, 873 - Pacaembu 01245-000 - São Paulo - SP Tel: (11) 3822-4764 - Fax: (11) 3663-0705 Email: atendimento@projetoreeducar.org.br O Projeto Reeducar nasceu da indignação e da inconformidade de pais e mães de família agredidos com os abusos cometidos nas escolas por certo tipo de livros didáticos. Pais e professores observaram um profundo sentimento de culpa e de inferioridade nos filhos e alunos motivado pelo grande número de livros didáticos que denigrem continuamente os grandes personagens da história do Brasil e seus feitos heróicos. Esse sentimento de inferioridade é sistematicamente nutrido de um lado pelos livros didáticos que apenas enfocam os aspectos negativos de nossa história pátria, e de outro pelos meios de comunicação que apenas apresentam o lado negativo de nossa realidade atual sob pretexto de aumentar a sua audiência. É inaceitável que os personagens heróicos da história do Brasil sejam ridicularizados e menosprezados e que apenas os heróis de outros países, sejam sistematicamente valorizados. A história do Brasil sempre é apresentada de forma negativa em comparação à história dos Estados Unidos como se fossem uma nação superior e a nação brasileira de segunda classe. O fato mais grave de toda essa problemática educacional está no fato de não haver dispositivos legais capazes de solucionar adequadamente esta questão. Hoje nossos filhos são deseducados pelos meios de comunicação de massa e até mesmo pelas escolas, sob o pretexto de lhes mostrar apenas uma visão crítica capaz de destruir e incapaz de construir pela síntese dinâmica de conceitos amplos. Diante das dificuldades de solucionar o problema surgiu o Projeto Reeducar com a finalidade de reunir pais e professores interessados em debater e oferecer propostas de solução para os grandes problemas educacionais do Brasil. |
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 16, 2004 15:34:00 GMT -5
Flags of the three American Monarchies Haiti Mexico First Empire  Second Empire Historic website of the Mexican monarchists. www.casaimperial.org/Brazil |
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Post by Silveira on Mar 17, 2004 12:09:51 GMT -5
A few years ago, after the Collor de Mello crisis, there was a constitutional referendum in Brazil in which people had to chose between a Presidentialist, Parliamentary, or Monarchist political regime. The Presidentialist option gathered the most votes.
D. Luiz is associated with the controversial TFP (Tradição, Família e Propriedade) movement, founded by the Brazilian Plínio Correia de Oliveira in 1959. It is often described as "ultra-reactionary" and has adherents in Latin America, Spain and Portugal. It is a sort of much more radical Opus Dei.
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Post by Necronomicom on Mar 17, 2004 22:32:17 GMT -5
Most of the people who support the separation of southern Brazil (they are very few) are the ones who criticize the Portuguese colonization of Brazil the most. They are complexed people who wished Brazil was colonized by Germans, English (like Jamaica) or Dutch (like Surinam) rather than by the Portuguese. Wrong, most of the anti-Portuguese Brazilians are anti-racist, left-wing, often mestiço, people that dislike the Portuguese for killing indians and enslaving blacks, it has nothing to do with wishing to be German, English, or whatever. and btw the Portuguese colonization of Brazil was terrible, today's Brazil social and criminal problems can be linked in a indirect way to the Portuguese colonization. |
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Post by Silveira on Mar 18, 2004 4:01:43 GMT -5
You are correct. What I wished to say was that many of the people on the internet who support the independance of the south of Brazil do so out of racist calculations. Most of the pro-Gaúcho independance people in RS are only extreme regionalists who don´t care about racial questions. There are mulatto gaúchos in Rio Grande do Sul.
This is an often repeated "lugar comum" which is prevalent in the Brazilian education system and media. You must understand that Brazil in 1822 was a very different country than it is today. Most of the current social problems in Brazil are related to a very uneven distribution of wealth. This is a product of the urbanization and industrialization processes which Brazil suffered mostly in the 20th century, long after independance. Anyway, the "Portuguese" allegedly responsible for all of Brazil´s problems are the ancestors of today´s Brazilians (including D. Luiz) and not the Portuguese who stayed in Portugal.
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Post by alex221166 on Mar 18, 2004 10:37:31 GMT -5
and btw the Portuguese colonization of Brazil was terrible, today's Brazil social and criminal problems can be linked in a indirect way to the Portuguese colonization. Of course it is all our fault (nevermind the fact that you have been independent for the last 182 years). If it is all our fault, then you are an incompetent country and an incompetent people for not doing anything in the last 182 years to change the terrible state we left Brazil in 1822. Of course, it is not our fault - it is all yours and your ancestors'. Most of the damage done to the forests and to the Indians was of course done after the independance by your ancestors (as in "not mine"). In that aspect, Brazilian anti-Portuguese feelings are actually quite similar to Afrocentrism in the way that it is much easier to blame others for our own failures instead of facing our own inadequacies. Of course, that is also the reason why you are still using the same lousy argument for the last 182 years to justify your failures. Maybe if you had been colonised by England, you would resemble more that great world power - I am obviously talking about Jamaica. Maybe if you had been colonised by France, you would resemble more that great world power - Haiti. Maybe if you had been colonised by Holland, you would resemble more that great world power - Surinam. Maybe if you had been colonised by Spain, you would resemble more that great world power - Venezuela. Unfortunately, you were colonised by the Portuguese, those brown haired stocky guys who just left you one of the richest and largest countries in the world for you to live in. Yeah, let's blame Portugal and not Brazil. Nevermind the fact that Portugal was abandoned by Brazil at the time it needed it the most (after being ruined by the French invasions). Hell, we were so bad that we even gave you our rightful heir to the Portuguese throne to be the first Brazilian emperor. Or maybe if you actually started assuming your own mistakes for a change and do something to prevent them from being repeated, maybe, just maybe, you would start having a better country. What the hell, what am I saying? I think I am going to start blaming the Romans for civilising my country. Did you know that Portugal used to have platinum, gold, ore and silver? But the evil Romans mined all of it... Seriously: grow up. You might want to follow this guy's lead and do some self-criticism... God knows you need to. www.instituto-camoes.pt/arquivos/historia/fundbrasil.htm |
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