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[Prove]

racialreality said:

It depends on how one defines marginal. That study is only looking at paternal ancestry. In terms of maternal input, Italians (north and south) are mostly Paleolithic. I've crunched the Y-chromosome and mtDNA figures from the present study and another one, and found that the breakdown of Neolithic ancestry in Italy is approximately as follows: 15% in the north, 25% in the center, and 30% in the south. I personally don't consider that a significant difference, given the clines that exist throughout Europe.

Well, according to the recent Underhill study the people of Benevento on Y Chromosome analysis have 26% HG9 and 17.4% HG21 which add up to 43.5%. Now this will produce a ~13% discrepency from the 30% southern average that you found. If we include G2*, or Eu11 the Beneventans' Neolithic heritage will bump up to 54.4%.

In Foggia, the figures are even more drastic:

J2-(DYS413<18) + J2*-(xDYS413<18) + J*(xJ2) = 44.4% (HG9).
DE = 11% (HG21)
G2 = 14.8% (Eu11 which is non-European HG2)
Combined, the figures account for 70.2% Neolithic ancestry amongst Foggians. A far cry from 30%. The perplexing thing is that the central and southern Apulians that were studied show an average of 17.85% HG J...which is actually below the national average. Conversely, the HG21 lineage of the central and southern Apulians amounts to an average of 31%.

Amazing. The Neolithic contributions amongst the north Apulians stem from a low North African input combined with an excessive Levantine one. Reversing the picture further down the peninsula, in which the North African influence is markedly higher, while the Middle Eastern one is surprisingly moderate. This inspite of the fact that this region has no physical boundaries to impede North-South demic migrations throughout its long history. Can we rule out Post-Neolithic influences entirely?

If we look to certain parts of Abruzzi the average of HG J is 28.3%. The average of HG21 is 10%. Finally, the average of Eu 11 is 4.2%, for a combined average of 42.5%...which also supercedes the average you placed on the central Italian Neolithic.


* - (Incidentally, I am aware that G2 or Eu11 has nothing to do with either HG9 or HG21 though some believe that it is a Near Eastern marker. The fact that it arises in similar frequencies throughout Italy is interesting. I think it arose from the Caucausus, but it is still considered a Neolithic marker).

racialreality said:

But why the obsession with making Italians "Midean" at any cost? Aren't you happy enough just being Southern European?

I am not obsessed. Just looking for answers in this puzzle. The Greeks, which interacted with the Middle East on a greater level than the Italians, have on average, the same (if not lower) averages of Neolithic ancestry than the southern Italians. This in spite of the fact that Greece had more extensive cultural ties with the Middle East in the ancient and historical era. If the figures from the study did indeed record the genetic input of demic groups from the genuine Neolithic it would be surprising given Greece's closer proximity to the Levant.



On another note, I would like to know just what are the methods used by Genetic scientists to deduce the time of input for the Middle Eastern and North African genes in a given population.

[Sexy Italian Male]

Prove said:

No I won't. Nor will it be a debate per se. Just a differing view, which no matter how valid, cannot be taken as infallible since Racial Reality has most of the genetic studies to back-up his corner.

And let me just emphasize that this is not war. Most of the sub-racial bickering (the Nord vs. Med being just one example) can be summed up as acts of vanity. I want nothing to do with it and I have better things to do, as I am sure other people in here do.

Not looking for a war just to see two different views clash its interesting its what these kind of forums should be about.

[Dienekes]

Prove said:

This inspite of the fact that this region has no physical boundaries to impede North-South demic migrations throughout its long history. Can we rule out Post-Neolithic influences entirely?

Besides physical boundaries, you must also consider linguistic and cultural boundaries and different processes of settlement. Of course there have been Post-Neolithic influences in Southern Italy, indeed great ones. The most important post-Neolithic influences are the Greek and Phoenician colonizations. Both Greeks and Phoenicians at least going by their modern descendants have a substantial level of Haplogroup E.

Prove said:

* - (Incidentally, I am aware that G2 or Eu11 has nothing to do with either HG9 or HG21 though some believe that it is a Near Eastern marker. The fact that it arises in similar frequencies throughout Italy is interesting. I think it arose from the Caucausus, but it is still considered a Neolithic marker).

That is incorrect. According to Ornella Semino:

"Haplotypes Eu9, Eu10, and Eu11share the 49a,f haplotype 8 or its derivatives, which are not observed in any of the other 16 Eu haplotypes (19), suggesting a shared common ancestry."

Prove said:

I am not obsessed. Just looking for answers in this puzzle. The Greeks, which interacted with the Middle East on a greater level than the Italians, have on average, the same (if not lower) averages of Neolithic ancestry than the southern Italians. This in spite of the fact that Greece had more extensive cultural ties with the Middle East in the ancient and historical era. If the figures from the study did indeed record the genetic input of demic groups from the genuine Neolithic it would be surprising given Greece's closer proximity to the Levant.

The amount of "Neolithic ancestry", more properly of Haplogroups J,G,E, varies within Greece itself. Not every part of Greece contributed to the colonization of Italy equally.

[Prove]

Good points Dienekes, but you must realize that the Phoenicians had practically no influence on Italy outside of Sicily.

On another related note, here's a excerpt of Coon that I think is informative:

That this popualtion was by no means purely or even predominantly Mediterranean is shown by the study of the skulls of Pompeiians,72 victims of the eruption which turned their city from a metropolis into a museum. These crania, with a mean cranial index of 80, represent a population which had acquired a racial character of its own despite its mixed origin, and in which the Alpine element was the most important. The vaults are of moderate size, as are the faces; the mean nasion-menton height of 119 mm. is too low to suggest a strong Dinaric element, which the mesorrhiny typical of the group also precludes.

[Dienekes]

That's true about the Phoenicians, but the Phoenicians ceased to be a distinct ethnic group in Sicily in ancient times and from then onwards their genetic material would spread from the Sicilian nexus to adjacent areas, i.e., to southern Italy.

[Racial Reality]

Prove said:

Well, according to the recent Underhill study the people of Benevento on Y Chromosome analysis have 26% HG9 and 17.4% HG21 which add up to 43.5%. Now this will produce a ~13% discrepency from the 30% southern average that you found.

You're not paying attention. That study is just on paternal ancestry. The numbers I gave reflect total input. 44% Neolithic Y-chromosomes would be 22% total. 70% would be 35%. And so on. The average Neolithic paternal contribution to Southern Italy (according to the present study) is 50%. That, plus about 10% mtDNA, makes a total of 30%* Neolithic ancestry, which naturally varies somewhat between locales.

*This was my original estimate. The new estimate, after factoring in G2, is 34% (with 26% in the center and 18% in the north).

I am not obsessed.

You sure seem to be. Almost as much as Tony.

[Racial Reality]

Dienekes said:

Of course there have been Post-Neolithic influences in Southern Italy, indeed great ones. The most important post-Neolithic influences are the Greek and Phoenician colonizations.

I disagree. The only influence that shows up in autosomal testing is Greek. Ancestry from Phoenicians -- as well as other post-Neolithic groups like Moors, Normans, etc. -- must have been no more than negligible.

[Melnorme]

Wouldn't Phoenician ancestry, being from the Levant, show up as 'Neolithic'?

[Dienekes]

racialreality said:

I disagree. The only influence that shows up in autosomal testing is Greek. Ancestry from Phoenicians -- as well as other post-Neolithic groups like Moors, Normans, etc. -- must have been no more than negligible.

Phoenician ancestry would contribute to the first principal component of variation. Of course the Phoenicians did not have as great an impact as the Greeks, but one can't discard the Phoenician colonies of Sicily as "negligible". I think that the few "Near Eastern" physiognomic traits that appear in e.g., Cyprus as opposed to mainland Greece are -at least partly- of Phoenician origin. Cyprus like Sicily had a Greco-Phoenician population that was fully Hellenized even in ancient times.

[Prove]

racialreality said:

You're not paying attention. That study is just on paternal ancestry. The numbers I gave reflect total input. 44% Neolithic Y-chromosomes would be 22% total. 70% would be 35%. And so on. The average Neolithic paternal contribution to Southern Italy (according to the present study) is 50%. That, plus about 10% mtDNA, makes a total of 30%* Neolithic ancestry, which naturally varies somewhat between locales.

Oh. Okay, that makes sense. The lower levels of mtDNA are usually due to female mortality, correct?

Melnorme said:

Wouldn't Phoenician ancestry, being from the Levant, show up as 'Neolithic'?

That's exactly what I have been trying to say all along. One method used was to cross-reference studies on one of the HG21 subclades (of the Moroccan Berbers, I believe) to southern Italian samples. The inference being that low figures of this particular subclade would reveal a minute Moorish hertiage since the Saracen "era" in Italy was largely spearheaded by North African Muslims.

[Josh]

This is a good way to begin on the forum. I'm 16 and I was born in Seattle, WA, USA. My father is mostly Irish and Scottish and my Mom is half Italian, with the rest being English, French, and Indian (Ojibwa).

[Racial Reality]

Dienekes said:

Phoenician ancestry would contribute to the first principal component of variation. Of course the Phoenicians did not have as great an impact as the Greeks, but one can't discard the Phoenician colonies of Sicily as "negligible".

Well, genetic studies usually differentiate between ancient and recent ancestry. And the more data I see, the more I doubt that any historical colonies have had a significant demographic impact, at least until those of the New World. After all, a colonization is not the same phenomenon as a migration event.

Of course, the large Greek influx into Southern Italy seems to have been a big exception to the rule, and I accept the impact it had only because there's so much evidence to support it. But I'll remain skeptical about the impacts of other colonies, unless new information surfaces that bears out such speculation.

[tphabs]

Oh. Okay, that makes sense. The lower levels of mtDNA are usually due to female mortality, correct?

It could also be attributed to the lack of European mtDNA variation (when compared to the Y-Chromosome).