The Most Extreme Caucasoid

[Okai]

Would the most "Extreme" Caucasoid type be a Nordic? Or a Pathan?

[aroundtheworld]

Apparently it's an Iranian. I think Nords look less "Caucasoid" than them b/c they are not as sharp-featured and are more facially neutral whereas if a Nord mixed with SSA the child is more likely to look "black".

If an Iranian mixes with SSA, the child appears Indian or dark CAucasoid for some reason. REally strange.

SSA mixed with Greek or Italian usually makes a Med looking cihld or Indian-looking.

It's wierd b/c people always assume Southern Euros and Meds are "less white" but it's funny how when they mix with extremly black people the children are "non-black".

Nords, even with their light skin, hair, and eyes blend and tend to absord right into SSA genetic for some reason whereas Med/Southern Euro and even Jewish comes out "White".

[human2]

aroundtheworld said:

Apparently it's an Iranian. I think Nords look less "Caucasoid" than them b/c they are not as sharp-featured and are more facially neutral whereas if a Nord mixed with SSA the child is more likely to look "black".

If an Iranian mixes with SSA, the child appears Indian or dark CAucasoid for some reason. REally strange.

SSA mixed with Greek or Italian usually makes a Med looking cihld or Indian-looking.

It's wierd b/c people always assume Southern Euros and Meds are "less white" but it's funny how when they mix with extremly black people the children are "non-black".

Nords, even with their light skin, hair, and eyes blend and tend to absord right into SSA genetic for some reason whereas Med/Southern Euro and even Jewish comes out "White".

The reason is facial features..

Northern Europeans are not all considered Nords.. they have more of a Alpine plus or Cro-Magnoid/UP Euro element with more reserved features and wider faces, thus rounder and far more likely to look rounder when mixed with Africans.

Gareth posted some "Nordic" woman and some Nilote to show how they are both "Aryan".. The real funny thing was that the "Nordic" woman looks that way because she has a less "Caucasoid" face.

[aroundtheworld]

Ok. Glad you understood what I was trying to explain! Less extreme Caucasoid is considered white whereas Extreme is considered "non-white" which is really strange.

[buddy]

Pigmentation is overrated. The most extreme features among Caucasoids would have to be Armenoids or Irano-Afghans. These people generally have very sharp facial relief, large eyes, and they also tend to be quite hirsute. All of these traits, which are associated with Caucasoids, are magnified in these subtypes.

[Drooperdoo]

Buddy's right. Pigmentation is superficial. Bone-structure is what really counts. That being said, Caucasoids differ mainly from negroids and mongoloids with regard to projecting facial features. Blacks and Orientals typically have flatter faces. Whites have long noses.
In fact, when the Spanish and Portuguese first made it to Japan, they were referred to as "long-noses".
That was the trait that most set them apart.
And what group of the white race has the longest and most dominant noses? --The Armenoid and Afghan types.
Bone-structure-wise, they'd be the most "extreme Caucasians".

P.S.--By contrast, Europeans--especially Alpines--have flatter faces.

[human2]

Keep the concepts clear, my dear dear Iberian amigo.

West Africans, the "Congoid"'s face, isn't known for either flatness or broadness.

It's their flat fleshy nose and often more buldging eyes that gives the impression.

[buddy]

^I think Droop just meant the facial relief, which in Caucasoids is generally more pronounced. It's also true that Europeans generally have slightly flatter faces than Middle Easterners, though Dinarics come very close.

[human2]

buddy said:

^I think Droop just meant the facial relief, which in Caucasoids is generally more pronounced. It's also true that Europeans generally have slightly flatter faces than Middle Easterners, though Dinarics come very close.

It really depends on what one means by facial relief.. West Africans, from what I see up close, generally have swept back cheeks (unlike many East Africans) and in
that sense they are less flat than a lot of Europeans.

[Drooperdoo]

Human2,
Of course I'm only speaking in extreme generalities. That being the case, this is what I meant: Look at this line-up of the "stereotypical races" in profile:



You'll note that the sub-Saharan skull is chiefly marked by its prognathous profile. The nose is typically wide but flat in profile. The side-view of the face juts out the furthest around the area of the lips. The Asian skull, by contrast, is flatter--though still with a slight tendency toward prognathism (a tendency which becomes very pronounced in South-East Asians). Now a change comes in the Caucasoid skull. The tendency is NOT for the lower half of the face to project, but rather for the upper half--chiefly, the nose.

Caucasoids--generally speaking--have more projecting noses than negroids or mongoloids. (I mean, if you know a Chinaman with a Cyrano de Bergerac nose, please produce him. I've never seen one.)

So generally--and I stress generally--Caucasians are distinguished from the two other major races by a more jutting facial profile. This comes to an extreme in the Middle East:



By comparison to Middle Easterners, Europeans are veritably flat-faced:



That's why I called Middle Easterners the "most extreme Caucasoids". That is to say, those features which distinguish Caucasoids from the other races are most pronounced--and exaggerated--in Armenoid and Irano-Afghan types.

* Of course, this is only anthropometrically. Genetically, Basques are probably the "most extreme Caucasoids"--that is to say, the most archaic and "purest" form of Caucasoid genetically verified.

[asdf]

I hear this over and over on Dodona, but these points aren't really that valid:

Point one - Caucasoids seen as "non-White" by society are in fact more typically Europid than Europeans, so pigmentation is not that important, despite the fact that:

(1) The people chosen by Blumenbauch to idealise his Caucasian race easily blend into Western Countries and are light for the whole Middle-East.
(2) The man's morphology chosen by Coon for his "Caucasoid" is more common for Europeans than for Middle-Easterners.

Point two--Coon said Irano-Afghans are the most Caucasoid, and that the Pathan he used for his best Caucasoid example is common for Irano-Afghans, which is common for Iranians and Afghans, who are the most representative Middle-Easterners.

But he didn't say that, it is not typical for Pathans, for the Irano-Afghan type (which in Coon's sense is a wide term anyway), and for Iranians or Afghans. And given the traffic into Iran from the steppes from Kurgans who undoubtedly carried Corded Nordid (which is what Irano-Afghans are metrically similar to, and in some cases, extactly the same metrically as - as in the case of this Afghan: (about whom, to be perfectly clear, Coon wrote:

FIG. 7, (2 views, photo Gordon T. Bowles) Closely similar to the Syrian desert border
tribesman is this Afridi from eastern Afghanistan. Its high, narrow cranial vault, in
combination with a great facial and nasal height, and its general cast of cranial features
makes this type nearly identical with that of the Corded people who invaded Europe
from the east toward the beginning of the third millennium B.C.

), it is not all proven that this isn't a European-influence in the first place.

And if it isn't one, take the beard and headware off and do you have the typical Middle-Easterner?




Point three - Blumenbauch's Georgians best exemplfy the entire Europid race, which he named Caucasian. Since they're predominantly Armenoid, or the skull he chose was an Armenoid skull (no one ever elaborates on which it is), then Armenoids actually common in the Middle-East must also be good examples for Caucasoids, despite the fact that:

(1) Those were no doubt Northern-Armenoids/Mtebids/Caucasids, intermediate in form between Dinaroid and Armenoid and are by no means typical of the Middle-East or Asia outside of the Caucasus.
(2) Taurids are not predominant in the extra-European Europid-territory.
(3) The un-orthogathous (orthognathy is a very imporant Europid feature b.t.w.) profile in Central-Southern-Armenoids is something which is closer to non-Europids.

If you want a better idea of what I mean, take a look at Coon's "Armenian Armenoids" plate . . . --


. . . where he shows (with the exception of the third, who's more of an Eastern Armenoid/Anatolid Armenid gracilsed with Eastern Mediterranid more or less the same as Adrian Brody) what I've been calling a "Northern Armenoid" which is more or less the Caucasid Armenoid that has as in common with Dinarics as much as with what you all mean, which is:



Also, the Caucasus has tons of this (Asian Alpinoid):



Which, like in Europe, (though perhaps thought not at in the same level) is found signifigantly all over the Middle-East, including Iran.

Point 3 - Dinarics, relatively uncommon in Europe, are un-Caucasoidly flat-faced, but their Middle-Eastern counter-part's flat-facedness is okay to ignore.

Point 4 - Brown hair is not typical of Europids, despite:

- 500 Million Europeans.

Point 5 - The Middle-East predominantly (1) Armenoid of Blumenbauch's point (2) "Irano-Afghan", despite the fact that:

(1) Afghanistan whs a lot of Taurid-Alpinoid elements (Pamirids) and racially foreign elements: Mongoloid elements (Aralids) and Veddoid elements.
(2) Lebano-Syria is essentially Asian-Alpinoid, Mediterranid, and Central-Armenoid.
(3) Turkey is general-Mediterranid and predominantly Anatolid (Eastern-Armenoid watered-down, gracilelised with Mediterranid)
(4) Arabia is predominantly Arabid (gracile, pigmentation, second to Indids, closest to non-Europid average rather than Europid average), and Armenoid at that point is at low-levels and influenced by Arabid.
(5) Egypt is self-evident enough I should think (it belongs here if Afghanistan belongs in the Middle-East).
(6) Israel... Armenoid, yes, but maxxed-out Caucasoid? Maybe in verbal ability.

So, to answer the original question:

East-Nordids/Fenno-Nordids/Corded-Nordids isn't any more Caucasoid than what the Pathan was in basic morphology, sans (assumed) untypical pigmentation and his downwards-pointing nose (which is not predominant in Europids or represents an 'average' anyway), so the Pathan, given the fact that his nose is more common than the Nordic's probably, is "more Caucasoid", but since he himself isn't typical of the Middle-East, it can't really be said this shows the Middle-East as more Caucasoid, since light skin is as common in Caucasoids or more, and as common or more seen as "Caucasoid".

Ok. Glad you understood what I was trying to explain! Less extreme Caucasoid is considered white whereas Extreme is considered "non-white" which is really strange.

The only way the 'extreme' (and 'ethnic') features of Armenoids (the ones you're speaking of), are "maxxed out Caucasoid" traits, are if (1) they were common in Caucasoids over-all, or (2) they were especially differentianted Caucasoids from non-Caucasoids.
They are not common and they are in fact closer to non-Europids - the traits which are most distinctive to Armenoids (the ones you're speaking of) are mesognathy, which is in the non-European direction, and the "Semitic" nose, which is approached by Amerindids.

Also the specific flared nostrils (think John Stewart on Crossfire).

Buddy's right. Pigmentation is superficial. Bone-structure is what really counts. That being said, Caucasoids differ mainly from negroids and mongoloids with regard to projecting facial features. Blacks and Orientals typically have flatter faces. Whites have long noses.
In fact, when the Spanish and Portuguese first made it to Japan, they were referred to as "long-noses".
That was the trait that most set them apart.
And what group of the white race has the longest and most dominant noses? --The Armenoid and Afghan types.
Bone-structure-wise, they'd be the most "extreme Caucasians".

By your own logic, because the Aztecs noticed the paleness of Cortés and friends' above all else, and since it would be and is that which would most contrast in the eyes of the non-Europids with themselves, depigmentation would be the most imporant feature - not that I'm saying it is.

[Dienekes]

The most extreme Caucasoids, i.e., the ones showing Caucasoid defining features such as nasal prominence, strong facial relief and hirsuteness to the maximal degree are certainly found among so called "Armenoids" (aka Near Eastern race).

The most average Caucasoids are probably found in Southeastern Europe.

[One Humanity]

The graphic is not ideal. A lot of Negrids have steep foreheads for example, the degree of prognathy is exaggerated and many anthropologic traits not considered.

The same is true of Claudia Schiffer, better find a middle way between saying either Europids or Negrids are flat-faced (put into relation with Mongoloids, they're not).

By comparison to Middle Easterners, Europeans are veritably flat-faced:

She looks like an angular version of Aretha Franklin in this picture.



Projecting Europid noses - Elena Dementieva is a good example and very beautiful too:







Two variants of the Sudanid type (interbred between each other), with fully different prominence of the malars:





Compare the facial relief of OJ Simpson with that of a Dane:

[ndrthl]

Cyrano de Bergerac's profile:

img43.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cyranodebergerac0rw.jpg

[human2]

The elevation of the nose itself isn't very obvious when you de-flesh the skull.

I look at the skull.

A flat wall with a flag pole doesn't take away the fact that it's a flat wall.