Two different kinds of Dinarids

[Synthesis]

I've always thought that Coon was right about Dinarids: they seem to be a combination of various types with quite a great variation.

Take these examples:


The first one has a very sloping forehead with a straight, prominent nose which continues the profile line making the head triangular-shaped. The second one has a less sloping forehead, a hooked nose and a higher rounded head. The same difference can be seen in these examples from Coon:

(Plate 35 Fig. 2)


(Plate 35 Fig. 3)


This one is very peculiar:

(Plate 38 Fig. 4)


This one was labelled a "a ultimate dinaric":

(Plate 39 Fig. 5)


This is a slightly Dinaricized Alpinid:

(Plate 39 Fig. 2)

[quarryman]

I think one can describe "Dinaricization" (Coons term) as a process based on any race. Thus, a Dinaricized Mediterranid will look very different from a Dinaricized Alpinid. I don't know if it's correct to describe Dinarids as a "combination of various types", but it is noteworthy that Dinarid features seem to occur most frequent in the parts of Europe where darker leptomorphs meet more depigmented pachymorph groups - from France over the Alps and Danube valley to the Ukraine with a most notable offspring around the Adriatic. In all these regions more round-headed groups with lighter pigmentation meet darker groups with narrow features (Borrebyids, Neo-Danubids and/or East Baltids depending on which terminology you choose meet different sub-types in the Mediterranid group).

[gambin]

plus "western dinarids"...those of the gallic type like descartes, jacques cousteau, and de gaulle and several basques look quite different from dinardis "proper", ie. those from the balkans.

[Platypus]

Middle individual (Dutch) is too short/Wide faced, and slightly curvoccipital and low headed, the first and last individuals are more typical,



I agree with you Pollusan

De gaulle, on the whole Dinaricized, very tall and robust, seems to lack the flat occiput and 'dome' shaped head of pure Dinarics


NB some of the Dinarics by Coon belonged to cultures where they practiced cradling in infancy with possible increase of Brachicephaly, although perfect Dinarics can be found in the Tyrol where this practice is absent

[Liquid Len]

Probably the most striking difference between different Dinarid forms is the breadth of the head and face. For example, typical Dinarids from Yugoslavia (considered by som as the most typical of all) are usually very broad headed, with big, broad faces. On the other hand, even the most extreme Dinarids from Tyrol tend to be very narrow faced, with narrow looking heads. I think the Carpathians are another area where the narrow version is more ususal.

[asdf]

platypus said:

Middle individual (Dutch) is too short/Wide faced, and slightly curvoccipital and low headed, the first and last individuals are more typical,

I'm sorry, but isn't the first a "Dinaricised Mediterranean", as I believe you had it labelled earlier.

[One Humanity]

seizure said:

platypus said:

Middle individual (Dutch) is too short/Wide faced, and slightly curvoccipital and low headed, the first and last individuals are more typical,

I'm sorry, but isn't the first a "Dinaricised Mediterranean", as I believe you had it labelled earlier.

Why not? The man clearly looks like one.

[asdf]

Face/long is too narrow I thought.



I don't know how to explain that other than Mediterranean mixture.

[One Humanity]

Ok, I first thought you doubt the man is Mediterranid-influenced.

Guenther wrote: "The Nordic face strikes one rather as 'narrow,' the Dinaric as 'long.'"

Nordid faces are usually long as well but Dinarids can have very long ones. In mixture, longer faces than both parental stocks can emerge, I'm not sure why. Lundman called it a general phenomenon, Coon a result of Mediterranization. This doesn't apply to admixture of significantly short-faced types obviously.

[Synthesis]

Ignoring pigmentation, the "Atlanto-Med" guy man looks somewhat Nordid, especially his jaw. Also I would call "Dinaricized Med" only a slightly Dinaricized Mediterranid, just like a Keltic Nordid is a slightly Dinaricized Nordid.

[quarryman]

waldm said:

Probably the most striking difference between different Dinarid forms is the breadth of the head and face. For example, typical Dinarids from Yugoslavia (considered by som as the most typical of all) are usually very broad headed, with big, broad faces. On the other hand, even the most extreme Dinarids from Tyrol tend to be very narrow faced, with narrow looking heads. I think the Carpathians are another area where the narrow version is more ususal.

I agree if you refer to Romanian speakers, but the Dinaricized Rusyns and Poles have broader faces (mostly the foreheads) and among Slovaks, Dinaricization is relatively rare.

Almost all Slavonic-speaking Dinarids have broad faces. The most narrow faces among Dinarids are found in Italy and Romania. Perhaps the Dinarid Albanians and Greeks fit in between.

But this is of course natural, since a Dinaricized East Baltid or Alpinid will end up broad-faced and a Dinaricized Mediterranid or Nordid will have a more narrow face.

[aroundtheworld]

It's funny about those blacka&white pics posted as examples-you rarely see "pure" looking people like that anymore. Everyone now has evolved to a more blended version of his/her race/ethnic group.

[quarryman]

aroundtheworld said:

It's funny about those blacka&white pics posted as examples-you rarely see "pure" looking people like that anymore. Everyone now has evolved to a more blended version of his/her race/ethnic group.

It's perhaps harder to get pictures like that today. I think you still can find many distinct populations throughout Europe. When travelling in the Romanian Carpathians for instance, I was totally stunned by the amount of Dinarids among the Romanian speakers and how easy it was to pick out the more broad-faced and lighter pigmented as Hungarians, Ukrainians (Rusyns) and Germans.

[Agrippa]

If its about European types I would to prefer chosing people from my country or another Central European region and taking the most typical out than searching on the internet. Naturally looking typical examples are harder to find in the www than if going in a big Central European city on the street quite often.

I agree this one shows Nordid traits too, could be labelled Atlantid or Nordatlantid rather than a typical Atlantomediterranid and for sure its no standard (Gracil-) Mediterranid:


Furthermore most modern types are the result of selection rather than common ancestry so there is not just Dinarisation but also Alpinisation, Baltisation, Nordisation etc.
The most original forms are Cromagnid (Dalofaelid being the modern representative) and Mediterranid with all the variatioh in between. Most other types are in my opinion derivatives and further specialisations.

Dinarisation happened usually in herders in hilly and mountainous areas. Even if there would be a common core, we can assume that they get mixed with locals but a basic tendency for Dinarisation was kept - same goes for Alpinoids. Overall it depends on the exact region and local gautypes are the natural variation inside all racial types-evolutionary tendencies. Its clear that many Tyrolese Dinarids have rather Nordid, Atlantomediterranid and Alpinoid, Montenegrine Cromagnoid and Atlantomediterranid/Pontid affinities.

[quarryman]

I can buy the predomination i SE European (and W Asian) highlands. But can we really be sure there is a common core? Sometimes I doubt it, comparing (for example) very broad-headed and depigmented Dinarids from NE Europe with the often leptomorph and narrow-skulled Dinarids of Italy.