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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 1:57:27 GMT -5
The problem with your theorizing is that the data, hell, even the dendrogram you posted, prove my points. If you have data regarding the dental affinities of Ancient Egyptians, i.e., relevant to the topic of this thread, please post them. Until then, I'm happy with the two studies that I posted and their conclusions. Yu saw the dendogram I posted of Irish in which Nubians and ancient Egyptians clustered together based on dental traits as well as the dental study by Powell and Browse.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Dec 20, 2005 2:01:22 GMT -5
What type were Nubians specifically? And which period Nubians are we talking here? Somehow I've been led to believe that the first inhabitants of Nubia were Aethiopid (Horner type) and they were replaced by a migration of blue-black Nilotic peoples (like the ones you see on the Egyptian murals) from the south.
From looking like Somalis (or Bejas) to looking like Masai, is what I'm getting at. Is there any truth to that?
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 2:35:02 GMT -5
What type were Nubians specifically? And which period Nubians are we talking here? Somehow I've been led to believe that the first inhabitants of Nubia were Aethiopid (Horner type) and they were replaced by a migration of blue-black Nilotic peoples (like the ones you see on the Egyptian murals) from the south. From looking like Somalis (or Bejas) to looking like Masai, is what I'm getting at. Is there any truth to that? The first Nubians, Late Paleolithic type, were very Negroid, even more so than West Africans. Modern Nubians are Elongated types. All of these Nubians were blacks.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 20, 2005 3:03:06 GMT -5
You posted a dendrogram that showed them clustering with other Caucasoids. What you need to do is go find some evidence that Ancient Egyptian were dentally similar to Sub-Saharan Africans.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 3:32:39 GMT -5
You posted a dendrogram that showed them clustering with other Caucasoids. What you need to do is go find some evidence that Ancient Egyptian were dentally similar to Sub-Saharan Africans. Nubians are sub-Saharan Africans, why don't you lay off the true Negro typology? Nubians are *NOT* Caucasoids and the Egyptians clustered right along with them on that dendogram. In the words of a qualified *PEER-REVIEWED* anthropologist: "Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity."
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Dec 20, 2005 3:47:39 GMT -5
The first Nubians, Late Paleolithic type, were very Negroid, even more so than West Africans. Modern Nubians are Elongated types. All of these Nubians were blacks. If the first Nubians were more Negroid than even West Africans (by which I assume you mean broad West Africans), then why do they have simple, mass-reduced teeth and not massive complex teeth? One would expect a Negroid people (especially of the broad morphology) to have massive complex teeth.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 3:56:15 GMT -5
If the first Nubians were more Negroid than even West Africans, then why do they have simple, mass-reduced teeth and not massive complex teeth? One would expect a people of supposed broad Negroid morphology to have teeth similar to modern peoples with broad Negroid morphology, right? Its quite simple, the first Paleolithic Nubians were more robust overlaid with a morphology that was Negroid, just like Late Paleolithic North Africans[Taforalt] were more robust but overlaid with a morphology that was Caúcasoid, according Colin P. Groves. Dental reduction is tied to a number of factors, one of which is diet, a change from a hunter-gatherer diet to an agricultural diet and or pastoral way of life would do this. Its simple dental reduction, Europeans went through the same thing.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 15:12:39 GMT -5
Ok Pontikos here's your answer:
Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships S.O.Y. Keita History In Africa 20 (1993) 129-54
"Recently Irish (Joel D.) and Turner (1990) and Turner and Markowitz (1990) have suggested that the populations of Nubia and Egypt of the agricultural periods were not primarily descendents of the geographical populations of mesolithic/epipaleolithic times. Based on dental morphology, they postulate as almost total replacement of the native /African epipaleolithic and neolithic groups by populations or peoples from further north (Europe or the near east?)....They take issue with the well-known post-pleistocene/hunting dental reduction and simplification hypothesis which postulate in situ microevolution driven by dietary change, with minimal gene flow (admixture).
However, as is well known and accepted, rapid evolution can occur. Also, rapid change in northeast Africa might be specifically anticipated because of the possibilities for punctuated microevolution (secondary to severe micro-selection and drift) in the early Holocene sahara, because of the isolated communities and cyclicial climatic changes there, and their possible subsequent human effects. The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-dessication Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration. Biologically these people were essentially the same. It is also possible that the dental traits could have been introduced from an external source, and increased in frequency primarily because of natural selection, either for the trait or for growth pattern requiring less energy. There is no evidence for sudden or gradual mass migration of Europeans or Near Easterners into the valley, as the term 'replacement' would imply. There is limb ratio and craniofacial morphological and metric continuity in Upper-Egypt-Nubia in a broad sense from the late paleolithic through dynastic periods, although change occured."
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 20, 2005 15:26:15 GMT -5
In 1993 Keita disputes the studies by Irish of 2005? You'll have to find something a tad more recent than that.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 20, 2005 15:31:26 GMT -5
Its simple dental reduction, Europeans went through the same thing. East Asians also went through dental reduction after the discovery of agriculture, but their teeth look nothing like Caucasoid teeth.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 20, 2005 15:47:10 GMT -5
In 1993 Keita disputes the studies by Irish of 2005? You'll have to find something a tad more recent than that. What? the point isn't Keita here, but the in-situ dental reduction theory that is valid, how are you going to look solely at a dental study and ignore limb ratios and craniometric similarity which demonstrate continuity? Actually Irish's 2005 paper supports Keita, not refute him.
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Post by Ewig Berter on Dec 20, 2005 17:03:58 GMT -5
Face the truth Bass--- this thread is your Coup de grâce!. One can clearly make the difference between the way you defend your points and that of Dienekes. Sorry but to me its all like a Box Match where an amateur boxer is trying to gain vain points and to delay his ... KO!.
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Post by Ewig Berter on Dec 20, 2005 18:24:36 GMT -5
Dienekes, do you have illustrations of what are : (1) Simple, mass-reduced teeth !? (2) Massive complex teeth !?
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 20, 2005 18:35:56 GMT -5
Think Louis Armstrong vs. John Lennon.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 21, 2005 1:09:36 GMT -5
Think Louis Armstrong vs. John Lennon. I think of it as Jack Johnson vs the white boxers he embarrassed. the point of the matter is this, Nubians who are black have teeth that group them with Egyptians and other North Africans because they're all biologically related, so massed reduced teeth does not a caucasoid make and Irish never stated that, it was you who said that. You always look at such data and think race, ie, Caucasoids and Negroids when the authors make no such distinction,[as in the case with misrepresnting Jim Wilson's 2001 study when you misinterpreted Ethiopians as falling 62% into the "Caucasoid" cluster, based on *YOUR* interpretation. Thats just an example]. Nubians are sub-Saharans and black, simple and plain, you haven't proven otherwise so how can you say sub-Saharans don't have mass reduced teeth?
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