Dienekes' Mediterranoid

[Liquid Len]

Some of you will know that Dienekes has revealed five metrical types as clusters in Coon's data from his photographic supplement (his plates): He labelled them as Proto-Europoid, Mediterranoid, Alpinoid, Irano-Nordoid and Dinaroid.

"Examples of Mediterranoid":




You can read more about these types here:
www.angeltowns.net/membercenter/100/dienekes/articles/metrictypes/

According to the classical description the Gracile Mediterranid belongs to the Irano-Nordoid metrical type:



In fact he differs from the more Nordic looking Atlanto-Med mainly by having much less facial relief (and a shorter, more gracile stature, of course).

So the question that suggests itself is: Should the "Mediterranoid" metrical type be simply explained as a mixture between Alpine and Nordic/Mediterranid, where the brain skull comes rather from the latter and the face skull from the former? Such a seperate transmission seems quite possible to me. Or is this metrical type some sort of subracial type or tendency on its own? As the name suggests this would be rather a subtype of Mediterranid. At least Dienekes seems to imply that it occurs most commonly in the Mediterranean area (geographically). But some more Nordoid looking persons can obviously be of the same type. But if it's really a type on its own, then we desperately need a designaton, because there is none - except that metrical label, but that's not a racial designation, as Dienekes himself stated. And the Gracile Med with his Irano-Nordoid metrics looks unambigously different.

But lets decide the question first. If we compare the facial metrics of the average Alpinoid with those of the average Mediterranoid we realize that the latter's Bigonial is much narrower than the Alpinoid's one, and even narrower than the Irano-Nordoid one. Mediterranoid total facial and nasal heights are even shorter than the Alpinoid ones. The former's nasal index is thus higher than the latter's. So to me it looks as if the Mediterranoid was a type on it's own.

But how should we label it? Or would you disagree?

[Platypus]

Thanks Len.

There are racial designations for this type and i use them often in classification: Berid, Coarse Mediterranean, Danubian...

In my opinion the core of the problem lies in the 'official' description of the Mediterranean and Nordic races usually given by physical Anthropologists. As we all well know the official standard of identification of these types relies on standard characteristics such as dolicocephaly, leptorrhinity, and an endomorphic constitution. (the 'gracile' types then.)

This description is functional as being the total opposite of the Cro-Magnids types (Alpines included).

But what happens with us, is that whenever we see an individual of general Nordic or Mediterranean appeareance that diverges a little from the standard (e.g. more brachycephaly, short face etc) we too often call in cause Alpines (and Borrebies in the North) to Justify these changes, instead of considering the possibility of different tendencies within one main type. In England I see every day small faced, short nosed individuals that would be erroneously classified as Alpines, though their C.I is the same as the national average and their face proportions different from European 'Alpines'

Dienekes 'mediterranoid' although generalized and with a confusing name, helps to include these different tendencies.

My use of "Berid' and 'Coarse Mediterranean' and 'Danubian' terminology amongst others, to describe alternative, mediterranean types, could fit into this grouping.

[Edwin]

I am always impressed with Dienekes' reasoning.

He has to some extent inherited Coon's breadth, so lacking in later writers.


I recently had an argument with Agrippa, a very bright man himself, at Skadi which briefly involved what I called "infantile Nordids."

He did not deny their existence.

The thread is a bit repetitive:

forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=38300

The mentions are on Page 2 at 18:02 and 19:27 ;D

Might my impressions agree with yours?

[Dienekes]

The "Mediterranoid" is just one of several types which emerges when the 100+ individuals listed in Coon's plates are clustered with a computer. Coon grouped his various individuals to his own groups, and I wanted to see whether these groups correspond to what a computer would come up with if it had no preconceptions. The clustering roughly coincides with that of Coon, although not all of Coon's subtypes are distinct. It's a way to summarize some tendencies in the material. Of course, the clustering is as good as Coon's hand-picked dataset; we don't know whether or not the same clusters would emerge in, e.g., a large random sample of Caucasoid individuals.

[Agrippa]

And it depends on the anthropometrical input too...

[Liquid Len]

@ Platypus

Your interpretation surprised me a bit. I didn't think about that, because the Mediterranoid is characterized as very narrow (face / head, etc), while a Cromagnoid, or a Berid, which is thought to be ancestral to Alpinids by some, should be broad. But on the other hand, the "narrow" is in this case something purely absolute, not relative. And the Berid type is described as being even smaller than the Gracile Med, so not too large measurements should actually be expected. The mesocephalic index could be understood as a relative broadness. And the facial index isn't that low as in Alpinoids, but still lower than in other types. So metrically, you could be right perhaps. If this type is really Cromagnoid, it would be probably rather old. I used to think completely different about the Mediterranoids - as a later development, with an increase in the CI and some infantilisation like the reduction of the jaw and the nose.

Danubian cranial and postcranial relics are classified as Gracile Meds, although with some differences to the classical type (nose, facial index, orbits, upper jaw). There has been some gracilisation going on in the course of the Neolithic, while in the beginning there had been more Atlanto-Meds and not fully gracilised Mediterranids around. On the other hand classifiers like Agrippa and others (at Stirpes) see in the Danubian example (the Briton) definitely something Cromagnoid.

agrippa said:

And it depends on the anthropometrical input too...

You think he didn't measure quite right?

oliphanthead said:

I recently had an argument with Agrippa, a very bright man himself, at Skadi which briefly involved what I called "infantile Nordids."

You mean like the above posted Briton for example?

[Agrippa]

You think he didn't measure quite right?"

Well, I think he measured right, I'm no great Coon fan, but I think he was no complete..., but it depends on which things you measure and can be measured with classical methods.

[Platypus]

@ Liquid Len

There is probably lots of work to be done on the Berid type. The UP affiliation is unclear and this type doesnt have any Standard measurements. I use it a lot and speculatively both to describe both large Cro-Magnid Iberians and peoples of the mediterranean in general, or like in your description, very small, coarse featured short faced ones which maybe would fit with Coon's late Mesolithic Muge cranial type.

On the subjet I would also like to quote Eufrenio:

'Not to deny the reality of this Mesolithic element, but my observation is that this "coarseness" is greatly reduced by improving the standard of living. In today´s Spain, you don´t see as many short, stocky, rugged-featured individuals as years ago. If you look at young Spaniards, you see the sons of "coarse" Meds evolving in the dolico, reduced, and long-bodied direction. You can bet that better nutrition and less hard work have something to do with it.'

[Agrippa]

Thats true, environmental influences are important, on the other hand, giving such examples we should think about both lineages and recessive features too.

[Liquid Len]

I've watched a bit Spanish television yesterday (Tendido Cero). Some Spaniards were looking much more Cromagnoid than the Mediterranoid examples posted here - mesocephals (probably) with broad looking gonials and wide looking fronts, while the face length didn't look particularly short.

[Agrippa]

Palaeatlantid/Berid?

[Liquid Len]

Definitely Berid. They didn't show much similarity to Palaeatlantid examples I know of, and they were short and stocky. I think Palaeatlantid is rather rare in Spain.

[Platypus]

I made this 'Beridama ' time ago, maybe you've seen it, its not accurate and the two individuals in the centre diverge considerably. But roughly it llustrates the coarser aspect of this essentially mediterranean type



This small and bad pic shows a group of Spanish students.
the last guy on the right was very small bodied, small faced and rel. longheaded.
He had an incredibly high rooted but still short nose. his skin was 'yellowy'.
In retrospect, also the individual behind him belonged to the same type,
while the girl appears intermediate between them and the more traditional Mediterranean on far left.

(Note also the eyeslits which are quite narrow and sloping unlike in Italian mediterranean types for example)

[Liquid Len]

waldm said:

According to the classical description the Gracile Mediterranid belongs to the Irano-Nordoid metrical type:



In fact he differs from the more Nordic looking Atlanto-Med mainly by having much less facial relief (and a shorter, more gracile stature, of course).

I should perhaps add that according to some sources (Knussmann) a slightly "softer" look with a more oval face and a small (but finely modelled) chin is even more typical for Gracile Mediterranids. For example like this man from Puglia:

[Dienekes]

platypus said:

I made this 'Beridama ' time ago, maybe you've seen it, its not accurate and the two individuals in the centre diverge considerably. But roughly it llustrates the coarser aspect of this essentially mediterranean type

Most of these individuals are not young. Features coarsen with age.