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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 18:53:44 GMT -5
Xen, Yeah, that's why I theorize that Western Europeans should be called "Gauls" instead of Celts. The so-called Celtic region of Spain is Galicia [from "Gaul"]. The "gal" from PortuGAL is from "Gaul". The Spanish name for Wales is "Gales". The Irish name for their own language is not Celtic but "Gaelic". Etc. I think these Gauls were typically a mix of brunets and redheads--with a low level of blonds. The Romans--when in the Iberian province of Galicia--said "Beware of the short, redheaded Gallegos. They know no fear". So red hair in Iberia, Ireland, Scotland, etc. didn't come with Vikings [although I suspect Viking dna increased blondism rates] Galicia--said "Beware of the short, redheaded Gallegos. They know no fear" where did you read this? |
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 30, 2005 18:58:13 GMT -5
Goonie,
Herodotus says that the Keltoi lived by the pillars of Hercules. That's SPAIN--not France. Look it up in Herodotus's "Histories".
Secondly, the oldest so-called Celtic inscriptions aren't in France; they're in Spain. The earliest proto-Celtic languages are also in Spain, not in France.
Lastly, the people the Romans encountered in Iberia are today called the Celt-Iberians. Lastly, dna has said that the Irish, Welsh and Scottish have Basque Y-chromosomes.
So don't think that Basques and modern Spaniards are somehow different groups; they're not. The Celt-Iberians were Basques who adopted an Indo-European language--and later adopted a Latin language.
Look up the dna studies.
P.S.--Even the Irish legends say they came from Spain, not France. . . .
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jun 30, 2005 19:00:43 GMT -5
Yeah Droop,you should read what I said about Etymology up their....people get carried away with all kinds if fallacies!
Portugal gets its name from the Roman(latin/Greek) name Portus "Cale" ,which means "Beautiful Port"..nothing to do with Gallic/Gaul!
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:02:08 GMT -5
Goonie, Herodotus says that the Keltoi lived by the pillars of Hercules. That's SPAIN--not France. Look it up in Herodotus's "Histories". Secondly, the oldest The earliest proto-Celtic languages are also in Spain, not in France. Lastly, the people the Romans encountered in Iberia are today called the Celt-Iberians. Lastly, dna has said that the Irish, Welsh and Scottish have Basque Y-chromosomes. So don't think that Basques and modern Spaniards are somehow different groups; they're not. The Celt-Iberians were Basques who adopted an Indo-European language--and later adopted a Latin language. Look up the dna studies. P.S.--Even the Irish legends say they came from Spain, not France. . . . no he said they live beyond the pillars.again start referencing stuff out. |
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:02:42 GMT -5
Yeah Droop,you should read what I said about Etymology up their....people get carried away with all kinds if fallacies! Portugal gets its name from the Roman(latin/Greek) name Portus "Cale" ,which means "Beautiful Port"..nothing to do with Gallic/Gaul! dude let him first post where he got his info. |
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:04:32 GMT -5
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 30, 2005 19:16:41 GMT -5
Goonie, Where have you ever heard France as described as "Beyond the Pillars of Hercules"  That always means Spain. Always. The Pillars of Hercules are the Strait of Gibraltar and the tip of North Africa. That never means "France". Go to "Google," key in "Keltoi," "Herodotus" and you'll see two dozen Celtic groups say that the earliest reference to Celts is to Spain. No one says France. Name your source. Mine is Herodotus, page 132 in the Oxford edition of "Histories". What's yours saying "France"? I've heard of pre-Roman Spaniards being called "Celt-Iberians." Go to a search engine and key in "Celt-Iberians". You'll get 15,000 pages and encyclopedia references. Then do the same with "Celt-Frenchman". (Though France has Celtic Bretons (who are probably from Spain), I've never heard of pre-Roman Frenchmen called Celt-Frenchman. So why does the term "Celt-Iberian" exist, but not "Celt-Frenchman"? If I'm wrong about this please educate me. |
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:20:49 GMT -5
Goonie, Where have you ever heard France as described as "Beyond the Pillars of Hercules" That always means Spain. Always. The Pillars of Hercules are the Strait of Gibraltar and the tip of North Africa. That never means "France". Go to "Google," key in "Keltoi," "Herodotus" and you'll see two dozen Celtic groups say that the earliest reference to Celts is to Spain. No one says France. Name your source. Mine is Herodotus, page 132 in the Oxford edition of "Histories". What's yours saying "France"? I've heard of pre-Roman Spaniards being called "Celt-Iberians." Go to a search engine and key in "Celt-Iberians". You'll get 15,000 pages and encyclopedia references. Then do the same with "Celt-Frenchman". (Though France has Celtic Bretons (who are probably from Spain), I've never heard of pre-Roman Frenchmen called Celt-Frenchman. So why does the term "Celt-Iberian" exist, but not "Celt-Frenchman"? If I'm wrong about this please educate me. dude it means they EVEN lived BEYOND the pillars not they lived on the pillars.tartessos lived right on the pillars but they people where not celts. |
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 30, 2005 19:21:41 GMT -5
Crimson Guard, The ancient name for Portugal is "Lusitania". When the Romans entered Iberia, one of the main languages of the peninsula was "Lusitanian". What kind of language was "Lusitanian?" According to linguists, its listed as "proto-Celtic". So the founders of Lusitania were so-called Celtic. I.e, Celt-Iberians. As for the etymology of Portugal having "Gaul" in it, I've read it dozens of times. That's the thing about etymology. Sometimes it's guess-work. Your etymology may be correct, and so may the ones I"ve read. Here's a link I found in five minutes on "Google" that lists the "gal" as being from "Gaul". www.faqfarm.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_the_Gaels_and_the_Celts |
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 30, 2005 19:23:28 GMT -5
Goonie,
Find me one definition of France as having anything to do with The Pillars of Hercules.
Just one.
I think 99.9999% of the wickedly educated people on this site know that in clasical literature The Pillars of Hercules refers to Spain. So contradict me. Find one reference anywhere to France as "beyond the Pillars of Hercules".
One.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:28:40 GMT -5
Goonie, Find me one definition of France as having anything to do with The Pillars of Hercules. Just one. I think 99.9999% of the wickedly educated people on this site know that in clasical literature The Pillars of Hercules refers to Spain. So contradict me. Find one reference anywhere to France as "beyond the Pillars of Hercules". One. do you know what you read or type? did i say that the definition is France lol |
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Post by Drooperdoo on Jun 30, 2005 19:38:49 GMT -5
www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/391074"CELTS IN SPAIN," by John Patrick Parle Paragraph 4: "Circa 450 BC the Greek historian Herodotus, the Father of History, reported that the Celts were in Spain. Over time these Celts became known as the Celtiberians. Paragraph 5: "Cunliffe suggests that Celtic spoken in Spain was more ancient than Celtic Gaulish once spoken in present-day France." And consider the MSNBC article entitled "So-Called Celtic Nations May Be Misnamed". In the article it says that the Irish, Scottish and Welsh cluster genetically with Spaniards and Portuguese. Not Frenchmen. Frenchmen aren't in the article at all. They don't cluster anywhere near the Iberians and Irish. So if you have anything to contradict me, please present your sources. I've just given you a ton of sources. Please reciprocate, or erase your insulting posts attacking me.
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:42:16 GMT -5
www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/391074"CELTS IN SPAIN," by John Patrick Parle Paragraph 4: "Circa 450 BC the Greek historian Herodotus, the Father of History, reported that the Celts were in Spain. Over time these Celts became known as the Celtiberians. Paragraph 5: "Cunliffe suggests that Celtic spoken in Spain was more ancient than Celtic Gaulish once spoken in present-day France." And consider the MSNBC article entitled "So-Called Celtic Nations May Be Misnamed". In the article it says that the Irish, Scottish and Welsh cluster genetically with Spaniards and Portuguese. Not Frenchmen. Frenchmen aren't in the article at all. They don't cluster anywhere near the Iberians and Irish. So if you have anything to contradict me, please present your sources. I've just given you a ton of sources. Please reciprocate, or erase your insulting posts attacking me. how am i insulting you? lol |
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Post by lurker4now on Jun 30, 2005 19:44:47 GMT -5
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Post by mike2 on Jun 30, 2005 19:49:46 GMT -5
If the Gauls weren't Celts, then who in the blue blazes were? Who else lived in Central Europe besides the Gaulish speakers? Certainly not Germans, Italians, or Illyrians, right? Or am I to understand that the Celts of the La Tène culture spoke a language completely different to that of the Gauls? It seems to me like the La Tène people were the predecessors of all the Celtic-speakers.   I've always heard the Gauls defined as the premiere continental Celts. The Brythons and Gaels were just offshoots of these continental Celts. The Celtic languages began in Central Europe and spread west and east afterwards, right? So if the word "Celt" doesn't refer to the cultural or linguistic ancestors of the Gauls, then who does it refer to? Cause you kind of run out of people for it to refer to. |
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