A west African on west African phenotype

[mike2]

I agree with your sentiment, VibeSoldier. Most of my ancestors came from Europe, but I don't think I have a pure European culture or a European language or that I should be called European American. I'm just American. We have traditions that stem from all three continents: Europe, Africa, and North America. This convergence reflects in our culture, our language, and to some extent in our racial make-up. Yes, our traditions heavily bank on those of Britain, but I still think of myself as a native sun of America. I have no cultural connection to Europe other than the English language and Christianity (even though I think Europe is becoming less Christian and more secular by the day, but hey that's inevitable and it's supposed to happen).

[topdog]

Seizure said:

20 to 25 percent caucasian genes is a big deal.

There isn't much a question of why they look different than West Africans.

Its more like 6-17% admixture and African Americans are composed on of blending of various West African types. The woman was wrong to say that long faces are typical of West Africans when you can spot the long faces and narrow heads in groups like the Fulani, Teda, Hausa, Wolof. Amerind and European mixture has played a part in people with fairly *RECENT* non African mixture, but overall the impact was minimal.

How can that woman say 50 Cent and Taye Diggs look African but the majority of African-Americans do not look African? Taye Diggs and 50 Cent aren't the lone exceptions in a population of 40 million people, lol!

[topdog]

VibeSoldier said:

I agree. I am an African-American and we Americans are by and large mixed. But because of slavery, segregation, politics, and the one-drop rule, we are classified as black, white, Asian, Hispanic, Indians, and Pacific Islanders. It is inaccurate, racist, and silly. I am an American; black-Americans are Americans. Dikembe Mutombo (NBA Player), Charlize Theron (nordic looking South African) and Hakeem Olajuwon (Nigerian) are African-Americans, not I. We are a mix of West or Central African (Angola and Congo), Caribbean (Barbados), European (mostly from the UK, France, Spain, and Germany), and Amerindians. Then again, most 'white' people are not pure either. They aren't European or European-Americans, they are Americans. They are mostly of European ancestry, but some have Asian, Indian, and African ancestry. Yes, Beyonce is part Creole, a mixed-race people with African, French, Spanish, and Indian ancestry. Most African-Americans can trace our ancestry to certain areas of West Africa and the Caribbean depending on state. Some blacks in South Carolina can trace ours to Angola, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Barbados. Some blacks in Texas can trace theirs to the Upper Volta and some blacks in Louisiana can trace theirs to Senegal. But we are not African and our culture is not African; our culture is American. There is much a difference in phenotype between a black American and a West African as there is between whites of mostly British descent born in the South and those from the UK.

Regarding the one drop rule and culture, I agree with you, we as African-Americans are different from Africans. But since we descend mostly from West Africans with minor descent from west-central Africa there is undoubtedly going to be some overlap with these peoples. African-Americans collectively do not look West African but there are many African-Americans who would not look out of place in West Africa or Africa at all. Our culture is *AFRICAN-AMERICAN*, we have our own flavor when it comes to certain things and those difference should not be concealed under some vague 'American culture' term.

[topdog]

Compare the guy on the left side to Terrell Owens





They look like they could be brothers.

[amksa]

VibeSoldier said:

Most African-Americans can trace our ancestry to certain areas of West Africa and the Caribbean depending on state. Some blacks in South Carolina can trace ours to Angola, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Barbados. Some blacks in Texas can trace theirs to the Upper Volta and some blacks in Louisiana can trace theirs to Senegal.

don't forget the muslim Berbers who are the most generous providers of African offsprings : all those Afroamericans who despise Berbers (like in Ras forum where a guy complained once because he found out that he has Berber blood !) should investigate the eventuality that they have such admixture on them... yeah, yeah, i know, Afroamericans love to see themselves as pure Hausas or something like that, but West Africa history is made of violence, wars and Islam which favour interracial blend and mixture. West Arican are in fact also mixed like Afroamericans.
take the example of the Timbuktu myth that arose those days in Afroamerican writings, posts, etc. none of these Afroamerican want to know that's West african/Berber/Arab construction : they continiously talk about the African books (oh, african heritage !) that goes rotten under a pernicious sun in sandy libraries in sandy Timbuktu : they should ask themselves in which language these books are written... we're all islamized/arabized Africans !

look this board in Morocco :

[mike2]

Charlie said:

Regarding the one drop rule and culture, I agree with you, we as African-Americans are different from Africans. But since we descend mostly from West Africans with minor descent from west-central Africa there is undoubtedly going to be some overlap with these peoples. African-Americans collectively do not look West African but there are many African-Americans who would not look out of place in West Africa or Africa at all. Our culture is *AFRICAN-AMERICAN*, we have our own flavor when it comes to certain things and those difference should not be concealed under some vague 'American culture' term.

I have a beef with this and you know I'm not the only one. Why not just call your culture "black American" culture instead of African-American? I mean, are you more deserving to be called an African American than someone like Djimon Hounsou or Charlize Theron? This is a serious question and I'm curious how you would deal with a terminological problem like that when it's really not necessary. Please don't get all defensive when answering this because it's a very hot question.

You could say there are two conflicting definitions for African-American:
1.) A person with United States citizenship who was born (and/or raised) in Africa.
2.) A black American whose ancestors were taken mostly from West Africa and sold to white American slavemasters.

There are conflicting definitions for European American and African American. There aren't any conflicting definitions for white American and black American. When someone hears African American, they have been indoctrinated to think "black," when in reality a person of any race can be African American because Africa is just a continent, not a race or a culture. Maybe West African American would work better, I don't know.

African-American has always sounded like a euphemism to me. It sounds more respectable to use a Latin-sounding word than to just say black. I mean, the terminology used to describe Negroes in America has changed so frequently to be politically correct that it's almost ridiculous.

[humantag]

Mike said:

I have a beef with this and you know I'm not the only one. Why not just call your culture "black American" culture instead of African-American?

When someone hears African American, they have been indoctrinated to think "black," when in reality a person of any race can be African American because Africa is just a continent, not a race or a culture. Maybe West African American would work better, I don't know.

African-American has always sounded like a euphemism to me. I mean, the terminology used to describe Negroes in America has changed so frequently to be politically correct that it's almost ridiculous.

I totally agree. I think part of the problem here is again the continuing dissatisfaction on the part of black Americans with their identity or perceived lack thereof.

I suspect the term 'African-American' came out of a need on the part of blacks in America to have a name for themselves other than simply 'black'. It sounds silly, but I believe they want to be able to say something like "I am something-ese" or "I am something-ian" rather than simply "I am black".

'African-American' is for many blacks a decided improvement over 'negro', 'colored' or 'black' and has the fringe benefit of suggesting a common identity with North Africans, which is another reason for the popularity of this euphemism among black Americans, I suspect.

Another factor fueling it is that it has become something of a politically correct ritual - referring to blacks as 'African-American' instead of simply 'black' is a way for whites to orally genuflect and signal their respect for black Americans.

A similar example of this sort of oral genuflecting is the ridiculous practice in U.S. media of pronouncing Spanish surnames and the names of Latin American nations with an exagerrated Spanish accent, not to mention the constant references to 'Hispanic' individuals as 'Latinos' and now 'Latinas' for female 'Hispanics'. What's next, 'Latinillos' for little Hispanic boys and 'Latinillas' for little Hispanic girls?

This kind of ritual display of deference is reserved exclusively for 'Latinos'. Nobody feels the need to invoke a German accent when uttering German surnames, or to invoke a Polish accent when uttering Polish surnames, or to refer to France dramatically as 'La France' etc.

And for our hypersensitive European friends, this crap isn't brought about by Anglo 'Noridicists' imposing a nonwhite identity on Spaniards, rather, it is the result of timid and ignorant 'Nordics' and non-Nordic Americans alike acquiescing to the demands of both white and non-white 'Hispanics' asserting themselves as 'non-white victims' to be accomodated.

We are a sick, sick, sick society in the U.S., no question.

I must second Mike in saying 'don't go nuts over this Charlie' - we're just speculating and nothing perjorative is intended.

[topdog]

Mike said:

I have a beef with this and you know I'm not the only one. Why not just call your culture "black American" culture instead of African-American? I mean, are you more deserving to be called an African American than someone like Djimon Hounsou or Charlize Theron? This is a serious question and I'm curious how you would deal with a terminological problem like that when it's really not necessary. Please don't get all defensive when answering this because it's a very hot question.

I'm sorry, but white South Africans have no right to call themselves African-anything after the way how black South Africans were treated all those years. Thats just my personal feeling. African American is more appropiate because eventhough we are not 100% culturally 'African' we still have retained some elements of African culture, I made a thread on African coooking on RAS relating to this. People are off their rocker if they believe African-Americans are totally devoid of any African-ness, its just a matter of doing some reading and research to find out the truth. We have our own culture which has incorporated those lingering African elements along with some European and Native American , but its our own way of doing it that makes us special.

You could say there are two conflicting definitions for African-American:
1.) A person with United States citizenship who was born (and/or raised) in Africa.
2.) A black American whose ancestors were taken mostly from West Africa and sold to white American slavemasters.

Man, thats just arguing over semantics, I would say it includes both 1 and 2 and not just one or the other. Say what you want, I still don't consider recent remnants of colonists as 'African', they're to me still a bunch of Euros and Arabs inhabiting African land, but in the broadest sense they are Africans.

African-American has always sounded like a euphemism to me. It sounds more respectable to use a Latin-sounding word than to just say black. I mean, the terminology used to describe Negroes in America has changed so frequently to be politically correct that it's almost ridiculous.

Negro is the worst term to ever call a black person, but you're question the validity of the term 'African-American'?

[mike2]

Sorry, Charlie, but I don't agree with you at all about this. Doesn't really matter, though. You can call yourself whatever you want. Words and names mean everything to me, though. I don't take them lightly.

Anyway, Negro is Spanish for the color black and was applied to black Africans for simple lack of a better word. Ethiopian is Greek for burnt face and was applied to all black Africans at one point in time, too. Which would you rather be called?

[topdog]

Mike said:

Sorry, Charlie, but I don't agree with you at all about this. Doesn't really matter, though. You can call yourself whatever you want. Words and names mean everything to me, though. I don't take them lightly.

Its all good here, names do mean som ething to me also, which is why I reject terms like 'Negro'. African-American isn't misleading, it simply refers to predominately African-descended people living in America. White Americans can call themselves whatever they want, but African Americans don't need to apply the same standard of identification that whites use.

Anyway, Negro is Spanish for the color black and was applied to black Africans for simple lack of a better word. Ethiopian is Greek for burnt face and was applied to all black Africans at one point in time, too. Which would you rather be called?

Considering the racial, social, and historical use of the word 'Negro' in America, I would prefer Ethiopian since it isn't attached to a particular legacy of peonage and segregation.

[eufrenio]

Charlie said:

Negro is the worst term to ever call a black person, but you're question the validity of the term 'African-American'?

I was under the impression that it was a generally accepted term by both Whites and Blacks until 30 years ago or so in the US. Even Martin Luther King used the word "Negro".

[topdog]

eufrenio said:

I was under the impression that it was a generally accepted term by both Whites and Blacks until 30 years ago or so in the US. Even Martin Luther King used the word "Negro".

Negro to me is offensive because of the negative connotation associated with it and it is not accepted today. I'm amazed that people on message boards still use that ugly term.

[MC anunnaki]

Charlie said:

I'm sorry, but white South Africans have no right to call themselves African-anything after the way how black South Africans were treated all those years.

Only because how they treated black South Africans or also because they are white?

Which leads me to another question, do you guys consider white South Africans to be Africans or do you view them as Europeans who are in a place where they don't belong? I'm thinking a bit about how long a people have to live in one particular spot on the planet to be considered "natives" of that spot. Must the group have evolved on said spot? Can Aussies (who are not Australian Aboriginals) truly call themselves Australians or are they just a bunch of Euros? Same with every other colonized piece of land on the planet.

What do you people think? When, if ever, do we quit saying "white South African" and "black South African" and simply call them South Africans?

[mike2]

The South Africans have no European home to run to. There is no Afrikaaner homeland in Europe. They have evolved past being Dutch, past being British. I think they have as just as much right to call themselves African as the Zulus and Khoisan. My race, culture, and language may not be indigenous to America, but I am still as American as any Amerind.

[Wadaad]

Charlie said:

I'm sorry, but white South Africans have no right to call themselves African-anything after the way how black South Africans were treated all those years. Thats just my personal feeling. African American is more appropiate because eventhough we are not 100% culturally 'African' we still have retained some elements of African culture, I made a thread on African coooking on RAS relating to this. People are off their rocker if they believe African-Americans are totally devoid of any African-ness, its just a matter of doing some reading and research to find out the truth. We have our own culture which has incorporated those lingering African elements along with some European and Native American , but its our own way of doing it that makes us special.



Man, thats just arguing over semantics, I would say it includes both 1 and 2 and not just one or the other. Say what you want, I still don't consider recent remnants of colonists as 'African', they're to me still a bunch of Euros and Arabs inhabiting African land, but in the broadest sense they are Africans.



Negro is the worst term to ever call a black person, but you're question the validity of the term 'African-American'?

Well Charlie lets be honest here are Afrikaners the worst experience the African continet has seen? We all know that Black on Black crimes have been just as bad if not worse than anything commited by White South Africans. So are you saying that Hutus cannot call themselves Africans becuase of their Tutsi genocide?
All in all, Whites in South Africa have been more good than harm, thats a FACT