subraces in West-European countries

[executiona9]

Here is my opinion on which subraces dominate in West-European countries. In some cases there wasnt just one subrace that predominated so I picked 2 or in some cases 3. Feel free to criticize my views.

Finland : east-baltic
comments :speaks for itself

Sweden : hallstatt-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Norway : hallstatt-nordic and tronder
comments : tronder predominates in the west, hallstatt-nordic predominates in the east

Denmark : falish
comments : the borreby type is known for brown hair and blue eyes. Most danes are blond so they dont fit the borreby type. On the other hand Danes have too broad heads to be classified as Hallstatt-nordics. Thats why I picked a blond broad headed type (falish = borreby+ hallstatt-nordic)

England : keltic-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Ireland : keltic-nordic and brunn
comments : brunns predominate in the west, keltic-nordic predominates in the east

Scotland and Wales : keltic-nordic and brunn
comments : the reason why I took brunn besides keltic-nordic is because red hair is very common in Scotland and Wales (just as in Ireland), the keltic-nordic type is not known for red hair, the brunn type is mostly brownhaired but redhair is very common among brunns, so thats why I added the brunn

France : alpine
comments : France is one of the most purest alpine countries in Europe, in southern-france there are mediterranean strains and in northern-france there are borreby and keltic-nordic strains, however France is still by large an alpine country

Holland : keltic-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Belgium : keltic-nordic, alpine and borreby
comments : keltic-nordic is predominate in Flanders, Walloons are an alpine-borreby intermediate. Walloons are lighter than French people (typical alpine) thats why I added a lighter element (borreby) besides the alpine.

Germany : borreby and alpine
comments : borreby predominates in the north, alpine predominates in the south

Austria : borreby and alpine
comments : the reason why I added a lighter element (borreby) besides the alpine is because Austrians are lighter than the French (typical alpine)

Switzerland : keltic-nordic, borreby and alpine
comments : switzerland is a diverse country where no single subrace dominates

Portugal : mediterranean
comments : Portugal is the darkest country in Western-Europe when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour

Italy : alpine and mediterranean
comments : alpine predominates in the north, mediterranean predominates in the south

Spain : alpine and mediterranean
comments : when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour the Spaniards are lighter than the Portuguese (typical mediterranean), the spaniards are comparable with the italians when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour

[berschneider]

executiona9 said:

Here is my opinion on which subraces dominate in West-European countries. In some cases there wasnt just one subrace that predominated so I picked 2 or in some cases 3. Feel free to criticize my views.

Finland : east-baltic
comments :speaks for itself

etc.
r

[/i][/quote]


West-European? Why is Finland West European, it is way farther East than Czech Republic or most of Poland? What is the definition of West European/ess here? Genetics?

[berschneider]

Here is a nice essay on that subject by Norman Davies
dspace.dial.pipex.com/mbloy/westciv/westciv.htm

[executiona9]

West-European? Why is Finland West European, it is way farther East than Czech Republic or most of Poland? What is the definition of West European/ess here? Genetics?

Most people consider Finland to be part of West-Europe because of culture etc.
However even if Finland is east-European : I dont care. I made this topic to discuss subraces in various European countries.
I havent investigated the subraces in Eastern-Europe enough, thats why i sticked to western-europe

[darksphere]

executiona9 said:

Denmark : falish
comments : the borreby type is known for brown hair and blue eyes. Most danes are blond so they dont fit the borreby type. On the other hand Danes have too broad heads to be classified as Hallstatt-nordics. Thats why I picked a blond broad headed type (falish = borreby+ hallstatt-nordic)

I am Danish and the majority of Danes aren't blonde allthough I've seen that claimed many places both on this and other boards.

I'd say real blondes compose maby 22-25% of the population. 30% tops...

There are however also a good deal of people who has what we in Denmark denote with the charming description "liver paste hair"; a light brown colour bordering on blonde but not really blonde.

My guess is that the Borreby type would compose the biggest group in Denmark if you counted the whole population and classified them. There is nearly as many of Falish people though and also a significant segment of Hallstatt-type.

This is my estimate though and due to large regional variations in the number of the different types it is of course a biased estimate seeing as I haven't been all over the country.

Sir James Mellon, a British embassador in Denmark, writes in his book "and old Denmark..." a good deal about the Danish population physically allthough without knowledge about scientifical sub-racial categories.

He writes that a Celtic look dominates in Jutland whereas the Hallstatt-type("the Swedish look") combined with Slavic and Anglo-Saxon people dominate on the islands.
The people of Fionia are very different from the rest of the population, he writes, and are easily recognisable from other danes. He cannot classify them though other than that they "look like craftsmen".

He also claims that dark blonde hair is the most typical hair-colour. But I take it that that is in the biased view of a dark-haired man.
Blondes are definitely considered a minority in Denmark but our conceptions of blondeness are also different than those of none-Scandinavians; I've seen several American movies with "blonde" women whom no Dane would consider blonde.

[executiona9]

I am Danish and the majority of Danes aren't blonde allthough I've seen that claimed many places both on this and other boards.

I'd say real blondes compose maby 22-25% of the population. 30% tops...

There are however also a good deal of people who has what we in Denmark denote with the charming description "liver paste hair"; a light brown colour bordering on blonde but not really blonde.

My guess is that the Borreby type would compose the biggest group in Denmark if you counted the whole population and classified them. There is nearly as many of Falish people though and also a significant segment of Hallstatt-type.

This is my estimate though and due to large regional variations in the number of the different types it is of course a biased estimate seeing as I haven't been all over the country.

Sir James Mellon, a British embassador in Denmark, writes in his book "and old Denmark..." a good deal about the Danish population physically allthough without knowledge about scientifical sub-racial categories.

He writes that a Celtic look dominates in Jutland whereas the Hallstatt-type("the Swedish look") combined with Slavic and Anglo-Saxon people dominate on the islands.
The people of Fionia are very different from the rest of the population, he writes, and are easily recognisable from other danes. He cannot classify them though other than that they "look like craftsmen".

He also claims that dark blonde hair is the most typical hair-colour. But I take it that that is in the biased view of a dark-haired man.
Blondes are definitely considered a minority in Denmark but our conceptions of blondeness are also different than those of none-Scandinavians; I've seen several American movies with "blonde" women whom no Dane would consider blonde.

You probably have different standards of what blond is then I have. By the way : I consider darkblond too as blond

[berschneider]

executiona9 said:

Most people consider Finland to be part of West-Europe because of culture etc.
However even if Finland is east-European : I dont care. I made this topic to discuss subraces in various European countries.
I havent investigated the subraces in Eastern-Europe enough, thats why i sticked to western-europe

That’s odd because you are exactly talking in the context of sub races and not Cold War divide or more ancient Latin-Greek split. If the context of West Europe versus East Europe is not geographic, not cultural, then what is the meaning of it.

I discovered a genetic definition for Western Europe as the area with predominance of Hg1 (green) or the “Celtic Gene.” If that is used as the main defining criterion then indeed Denmark is in Western Europe while Sweden and Finland are not.

i.1asphost.com/berschneider/Haplogroups.jpg

[berschneider]

executiona9 said:

You probably have different standards of what blond is then I have. By the way : I consider darkblond too as blond

it's like being "white" - white in one society is semi-white or black in another I guess.

In Finnish mustalainen is gypsy but literary it is black. Gypsies are hardly blond Vikings but they are not Negroid either.

To me blond is blond. Someone who is BLOND, not with light brown or dark yellowish hair.

[darksphere]

executiona9 said:

You probably have different standards of what blond is then I have. By the way : I consider darkblond too as blond

It's likely that we have diverging ideas of what blonde is. or rather the people who wrote the material in which you have read that most Danes are blonde have a different standard for blondeness than I.

I too consider darkblond to be blond, I guess, thats why i take issue with Mellons claim that most Danes are darkblond.

[Weevil]

executiona9 said:

Here is my opinion on which subraces dominate in West-European countries. In some cases there wasnt just one subrace that predominated so I picked 2 or in some cases 3. Feel free to criticize my views.

Finland : east-baltic
comments :speaks for itself

Sweden : hallstatt-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Norway : hallstatt-nordic and tronder
comments : tronder predominates in the west, hallstatt-nordic predominates in the east

Denmark : falish
comments : the borreby type is known for brown hair and blue eyes. Most danes are blond so they dont fit the borreby type. On the other hand Danes have too broad heads to be classified as Hallstatt-nordics. Thats why I picked a blond broad headed type (falish = borreby+ hallstatt-nordic)

England : keltic-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Ireland : keltic-nordic and brunn
comments : brunns predominate in the west, keltic-nordic predominates in the east

Scotland and Wales : keltic-nordic and brunn
comments : the reason why I took brunn besides keltic-nordic is because red hair is very common in Scotland and Wales (just as in Ireland), the keltic-nordic type is not known for red hair, the brunn type is mostly brownhaired but redhair is very common among brunns, so thats why I added the brunn

France : alpine
comments : France is one of the most purest alpine countries in Europe, in southern-france there are mediterranean strains and in northern-france there are borreby and keltic-nordic strains, however France is still by large an alpine country

Holland : keltic-nordic
comments : speaks for itself

Belgium : keltic-nordic, alpine and borreby
comments : keltic-nordic is predominate in Flanders, Walloons are an alpine-borreby intermediate. Walloons are lighter than French people (typical alpine) thats why I added a lighter element (borreby) besides the alpine.

Germany : borreby and alpine
comments : borreby predominates in the north, alpine predominates in the south

Austria : borreby and alpine
comments : the reason why I added a lighter element (borreby) besides the alpine is because Austrians are lighter than the French (typical alpine)

Switzerland : keltic-nordic, borreby and alpine
comments : switzerland is a diverse country where no single subrace dominates

Portugal : mediterranean
comments : Portugal is the darkest country in Western-Europe when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour

Italy : alpine and mediterranean
comments : alpine predominates in the north, mediterranean predominates in the south

Spain : alpine and mediterranean
comments : when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour the Spaniards are lighter than the Portuguese (typical mediterranean), the spaniards are comparable with the italians when it comes to haircolour and eyecolour

Sounds like you just pulled that off the SNPA website and TROE.

[Graeme]

I have to say that I do not recognize dark blond as blond. Brown is brown whether dark or ashy. I actually find that type of blond looks dirty and unattractive. Thats probably why I don't get the Nordicist stuff about what is Nordish. You are either Nordic or not. Southerners vary as widely as Northerners yet there are very few sub categories of Meds. What about Alpinids they are extremely variable. All that effort that has gone into sub classifying a caucasian subtype which happens to be a minor element in the population of Europe. In Australia dark brown hair that most Southerners have is considered to be black. It is even described as jet black. Odd! Dirty blond = blond, dark brown = black.

[sublime]

Graeme - In my experience, dark brown hair appears darker when it is wet. This may be one of the reasons that it is classified as black.

Levels of hair colour are classified as follows:
1=Black
2=Very Dark Brown
3=Dark Brown
4=Brown
5=Medium Brown
6=Light Brown
7=Dark Blonde
8=Light Blonde
9=Very Light Blonde
10=Light Platium Blonde

I am not sure where silver, gray and white hair would fall. Perhaps a seperate scale is used for these types of hair.

[darksphere]

sublime said:

I am not sure where silver, gray and white hair would fall. Perhaps a seperate scale is used for these types of hair.

Silver, gray and white hair usually aren't counted along side other haircolours since they basically derives from no pigmentation which causes the keratine*of the skin to show through.

Very different from the other haircolours which are created through the amount and density of the melanin, the amounts of eumelanin and pheomelanin in proportion to each other plus mutations that may alter the transparency of the eumelanin and pheomelanin compared to one another.

In contrast to this silver, gray and white hair is not due to neither eumelanin nor pheomelanin and are thus judged separately from the others.
The differences between people with silver, gray and white hair derives from the condition of the keratine.

*Or Ceratine or whatever it's called in English.

[darksphere]

sublime said:

Levels of hair colour are classified as follows:
1=Black
2=Very Dark Brown
3=Dark Brown
4=Brown
5=Medium Brown
6=Light Brown
7=Dark Blonde
8=Light Blonde
9=Very Light Blonde
10=Light Platium Blonde

Where did you get that scale from? A good site?

Pigmentation is my subject you see

[darksphere]

Since this thread has turned it's focus to haircolour I'll post some information here about what the different haircolours derive from bio-chemically.

Why? Well finding exact information about this subject is surprisingly hard so now that I've dug up this information I'd like to share it with people. It's also very interesting, I think.

hair colour as said derives from the amount and density of the melanin, the amounts of eumelanin and pheomelanin in proportion to each other plus mutations that may alter the transparency of the eumelanin and pheomelanin compared to one another.

Here is how some broad categories of hair-colours are created*:

Black hair: Mostly eumelanin and hardly any pheomelanin. Alltogether a very high production of melanin and the melanin is very densily packed into the hair fiber.

Brown hair: Mostly eumelanin but still more pheomelanin than in black hair. Levels of pheomelanin vary causing the various shades of brown. The warmer and richer tones of brown is due to a greater presence of pheomelanin. The overall amount of melanin is large and very densily packed.

auburn hair: Mostly eumelanin but a mutation causes the eumelanin to become somewhat transparent allowing the pheomelanin to show through. Much melanin and densily packed.

Dark blonde: I don't know this for sure but I think it must be the same as for platinum blondes(see just below) only with more, and more densily packed, melanin.

Light blonde, platin blonde and stuff like that:
Mostly eumelanin but extremely little melanin at all. Melanin is packed at an incredibly low density.

Richer blonde:
A good deal of pheomelanin(even more pheomelanin than eumelanin in some) but extremely little melanin at all.
Melanin is packed at an rather low density.

Red hair: Mostly pheomelanin. Lots of melanin which is very densily packed.

Notice how many factors are involved and how nearly all the hair colours resemble all the others in one way or another.

This makes it very hard to group them together. For instance most people sees things as a continuum with blonde being the farthest away from black hair.

But one could technically group the lighter blonde colours together with brown and black hair based on the fact that all these three hair colours has mostly eumelanin. As opposed to richer blonde and red hair which has mostly pheomelanin.

But on the other hand it's also possible to make a group of black, brown and red based on their high level and density of melanin and disregarding that redheads have mostly pheomelanin.
Blondes then would be at the other end with forming a group under the label. "very little melanin, not densily packed".

So there are several ways to group hair colours if anyone thinks that is fun.
But basically they are all related in some way or other all the while each forms a unique collection of various factors.

Oh the great work or nature(or horny men if you're into that theory). Isn't it beautiful? I love it!

What to do about auburn hair I don't know. Chemically speaking it resembles black and brown hair with mostly eumelanin and much, very densily packed pigment. But phenotypically it looks like red hair just as much due to the way the pheomelanin shows through.

Auburnhaired people are basically weird mutants. Genetic rebels who defy categorisations ;D
(no offense meant - I like auburnhaired people).

Hope this was of use/enjoyment for anyone.

*There are of course other hair colours than these and they all have several subsections below them.