Y-Chromosome Evidence for AngloSaxon Mass Migratio

[Ewig Berter]

Y-Chromosome Evidence for AngloSaxon Mass Migration

www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf

[Cerdic]

Once again a number of fundamental flaws are shown in the scientific methodology.

First: limited sample distribution. If I only look at A, B and C then I will find that B is closer to C than A is or vice versa. If you put D,E,F and G into the sampling then a better indication of the relative closeness or distance of A to B or C is given. These people looked only at the Welsh, English and putative Anglo-Saxon homelands. They NEED to look at intermediate groups - such as the Belgians and North French and an out-group (eg the Italians) for their findings to carry any scientific weight.

Second: dating method is flawed. They take the period of 200 ish BC as the earliest divergence of the English and Frisians and argue that this indicates the Anglo-Saxon appearance in Britain explains this finding. However, they make a big assumption here, which they do not address at all. This assumption being that the Frisians and people of lowland Britain did not have any common inheritance prior to 200 BC. This is a massive and totally unwarranted assumption. Given that England is only 20 miles from the Continent in the South East there is no reason to think that a continental population may not have been ancestral, or partly ancestral, to both the pre-Anglo-Saxon inhabitants of lowland Britain and the Frisians.

In short, because Wales is a classic mountain-refuge zone and is situated on the opposite side of Britain to the Continent, it is in no-way a surprise that the Welsh might differ from the English genetically to a reasonable extent. However, this fact and the fact the the English are closer to some Continental populations categorically provides no compelling evidence that this situation was caused by a mass migration in the 5th century AD.

[alnoth]

I believe that the genetic studies do confirm the historical accounts. Amongt the factor that I think might not have been taken in account are the wanderings of people since the invasions.
The peopling of North America is an indication that there were movements of people since the invasion period. It stands to reason that there were movements within the British Isles. I wonder to what degree this might effect the current findings?

[buddy]

The fact that some studies do indeed indicate a strong infusion of Anglo-Saxon and Viking genes in the English, combined with the fact that they show the least amount of brunet pigmentation in all of Britain, is convincing enough for me that they are significantly more Germanic in stock. I personally buy the idea that the English are genetically closest to the Danes and Frisians.

History also attests to the idea that these groups settled in Scotland as well (Angles in lowland Scotland and Vikings in the outer areas and islands), and many Scots are also blond.

[Crimson Guard]

I don't buy these studies,not one bit. And the people of the British Isles are mostly Atlanto-Med .

In fact because they ran another study which claimed that the Britons havent changed from their racial/ethnic background in over 3,000 years,and that all the Anglo,Saxon,Jutes,Norman ect incursions left very little mark and basically no impact.

[Trog]

buddy said:

The fact that some studies do indeed indicate a strong infusion of Anglo-Saxon and Viking genes in the English, combined with the fact that they show the least amount of brunet pigmentation in all of Britain, is convincing enough for me that they are significantly more Germanic in stock. I personally buy the idea that the English are genetically closest to the Danes and Frisians.

It depends on which study one refers to.

DNA Research Links Scots, Irish And Welsh To North-western Spain


hnn.us/roundup/comments/7406.html

History also attests to the idea that these groups settled in Scotland as well (Angles in lowland Scotland and Vikings in the outer areas and islands), and many Scots are also blond.

Vikings groups were mainly contained to the northern and coastal regions, Angles south east only. During the time the Angles were settling, south west Scotland was occupied by Strathclyde Britons, North West, Scotti from Ireland, North East, the Picts. Roman testament already reveals lighter and red haired Britons were occupying the Island before Viking and Anglo invasions.

[Drooperdoo]

Anyone remember this BBC article on the subject, entitled English and Welsh Are Races Apart: newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

[Trog]

berther said:

Y-Chromosome Evidence for AngloSaxon Mass Migration

www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf

Note that this study was conducted in 7 small towns of England and North Wales.

[Crimson Guard]

Trog,do believe their some sorta contending politics involved in these confusing unsatisfactory studies? Or this just attest to some kinda opposing DNA quagmire!

[Trog]

crimsonguard said:

Trog,do believe their some sorta contending politics involved in these confusing unsatisfactory studies? Or this just attest to some kinda opposing DNA quagmire!

I actually have a lot of faith in the researchers who conduct these studies. I recall the supposed study on Greeks having Ethiopian DNA, and another paper by that same team which was dropped for lacking in merit. I hope the politics stays out of it (not possible, I guess) as they're often very enlightening and fascinating. I don't think they're always contradictory either and must be considered for historical and anthropological value, rather than instantly dismissed. Still, with all research, the methods and subjects used must be considered before reaching a conclusion.

[Crimson Guard]

Good Post.

[Glenlivet]

Source please. There is a Mediterranid element in parts of southern Wales, the Scottish highlands (and northwesternmost England?), West Midlands, Cornwall, Devon, and if you look at anthropology maps also in the Chilterns, but that is about it.

crimsonguard said:

I don't buy these studies,not one bit. And the people of the British Isles are mostly Atlanto-Med .

[Trog]

glenlivet said:

Source please. There is a Mediterranid element in parts of southern Wales, the Scottish highlands (and northwesternmost England?), West Midlands, Cornwall, Devon, and if you look at anthropology maps also in the Chilterns, but that is about it.

The Scottish Highlands is the least part of Scotland to have a "meddish" element. They're really the bastard child of Norwegians.

[Glenlivet]

Bastard? So you must disagree with Fleure. Where is the most Mediterranid element according to you?

So you are not atlanto-med/morfrain_encilgar from Skadi but have the same interest in anthropology as her, origin and type the same way? How fascinating.

xenophobic said:

The Scottish Highlands is the least part of Scotland to have a "meddish" element. They're really the bastard child of Norwegians.

[Cerdic]

The major point of my post was not that the Modern English and Frisians and Danes are not related (though the degree of relatedness of the groups is moot), my point is that the date of this relatedness is not rigorously derived from the data presented.

These people make an unspoken assumption that all the pre-Anglo-Saxon peoples of Britain were genetically homogeneous and were identical to the Modern Welsh. This has not been proven. The only way to prove this would be to PCR up DNA from pre-mid 5th century human remains from various places around Britain and undertake comparisons. Due to technical and preservational difficulties this has not been carried out to date.

If you take this assumption out of the arguments presented by these researchers then their latest date for a Frisian/English split is totally nonsensical.

Given that Kent (SE England) is 20 miles from the continental coast, whilst Glamorgan (South East Wales) is 200+ miles further West and relatively isolated geographically, there is no reason why a first century AD Cantiaci tribesman from Kent should have been genetically identical to a contemporary Silurian tribesman from Glamorgan. True they spoke the same sort of language and had many common cultural and religious practices, but the same can be said today: most citizens of Cardiff speak English as their mother tongue, and are Christians, as are the people of Canterbury or Dover.

There is no need to look at any particular date, mid 5th C AD included, to find the genesis of genetic differences between the West and Eastern portions of the British Isles. The West has always been more open to Atlantic influences - from Armorica, Biscayan coasts and NW Iberia, and the East has always been more open to influence originating from the near-Continent and the opposite shores of the North Sea. What can be seen in the modern genetic differences of the people of Britain is not the result of one or two historic events or processes but the result of millenia of genetic influences arriving from different points of the compass.

To take one or two historically attested events and hang the whole genetic make up of the British Isles on these covenient hooks is simplistic indeed and a rather poor attempt at science.