As far as genetics go.......

[Afro]

...is it scientifically plausible to look at a persons genes and determine by there genetic make-up how intelligent/athletic they will be??? Is it scientifically correct to say that one race has the MORE POTENTIAL to score higher on test then another??? Are stereotypes such as "Blacks are better athletes but Asians are natuaral businessmen" just true because of the situation/environment or do race and genes have something to do with it???

I'm a black American, and something that I've always wondered is say situations in this country we're switched, say whites we're originally the slaves and then later oppressed until about 40 years ago, how would things be different in America now??? Would there be "white slums" now??? Would you see black folks on TV going to court for political scandals while whites we're on cops getting arrested by black men for selling crack??? I certainly don't know how some "black criminal" or "white conqueror" gene could evolve, but it seems possible the way things are.

Also, now I know the difference between race and species. Blacks are a different race then Asians, humans are a different species then dogs, but I've heard that humans and Apes are both "Primates". What exactly is this "primate connection" called???

This is my first post here, so I don't know if something like this has been discussed before.

[AWAR]

I think this hasn't been discussed here

Anyway, it's nice to have some black members ( if you really are who you say ) Welcome

[Melnorme]

AWAR said:

I think this hasn't been discussed here

Anyway, it's nice to have some black members ( if you really are who you say ) Welcome

Oh, he's not the first. See the 'NE Africans are not necessarily hybrids' debate.

[jul]

Hi afro:)
I m not a genetic specialist or some...but iam wondering about such stuff too.
I guess some of the things are obviously a physical thing. If you have long legs you can run faster for example. The cliche black is taller than the cliche asian(as example) so if both train the black may win. I got no clue if it is really true if some races smarter as others. And actually i dont believe that. studies who say that do comparing apples with pears -we would say here.
Because the circumstances how people live are actually to differ to compare
-or psychic factors may play a role.
I do have a personal theory:
(But may is there some psychic condition...i dunno)exactly. Some people I know are asian or mixed with asian and i notice all are on a way *ambitious* i dont have a better word for it.( of course i do people who are *ambitious* and from other decent but there is some differ. If i could discribe i would) Its may a cultural thing but I do have the feeling it isnt.
Its kinda gutty example and its not proved a bit it has just happend in RL may its an absolut individual thing:
(so please dont take personal its NOT an offend)
Two Girls, halfsisters with very similar interest grow up as *full* sis in one and the same family one of the sis has a half black father. (She dont know about)The girl is damn smart- a genie(really, she had a IQ beyond 150 )
But she has no highschool grade!
Actually she should do by a blink. But by the faintest problem she surrendered and now she works as a waiter.in her freetime she write poetry and storys, paint and read books about palaeonthology.
She is not a general surrender.
In fact she works for greenpeace and do a lot of intresting stuff where she had to fight for her rights or the rights of other(as a mod for example).
The other Sis is not that smart.
She dont get it easy in life too but she has always fight for being the average in classes.It was importent to her.
She invest in that what she doing a lot.
Its importent to be good in her *job*.
It is absolut not understandable that the both came out that differ in just these point.
Both grow up in the same Family both love eachother like the hell.
I wonder how can it be? Is it some odd psychological thing? it was always like that since she was born.
I dont know it it has some to do with a differ state of mind by bringing up even when we grow up in the same family? Or is it my state of mind/genepol what is just to sucessorientated that i could cry about?
I wonder if it is in our genes.

[murphee]

Afro, I think that what is observed about how people live is a result of both cultural and genetic components.

[dandan]

I think it is impossible to answer this question, given that genes and culture are impossible to separate.
For instance; take two babies, a la Plato's cave, one black and one white, and raise them up completely equally, even then there would still be the prejudices, how ever slight and subtle and repressed, of those who raised them, and these would of course have an effect.
Geneticists, scientists, whoever, nobody and nothing in our world operates without the mandate of culture, including social or scientific analysis.
In the case of the US this is especially true. There is truly no escaping the widely held prejudices (positive or negative) concerning race, and the fact that it is tied in so closely with economics is just the icing on the cake.
If, instead, one were to look at Black Africa and say; "oh look! what a load of crap. Africans/black people can't do anything, even when they have their own countries", such a person would not be taking into account the enormously destructive effects of colonialism. Et cetera, et cetera.
PS An interesting book on the failure of the state in Africa; "The Black Man's Burden: Africa and the Curse of the Nation State" by Basil Davidson.

[AWAR]

dandan said:

I think it is impossible to answer this question, given that genes and culture are impossible to separate.
For instance; take two babies, a la Plato's cave, one black and one white, and raise them up completely equally, even then there would still be the prejudices, how ever slight and subtle and repressed, of those who raised them, and these would of course have an effect.
Geneticists, scientists, whoever, nobody and nothing in our world operates without the mandate of culture, including social or scientific analysis.
In the case of the US this is especially true. There is truly no escaping the widely held prejudices (positive or negative) concerning race, and the fact that it is tied in so closely with economics is just the icing on the cake.
If, instead, one were to look at Black Africa and say; "oh look! what a load of crap. Africans/black people can't do anything, even when they have their own countries", such a person would not be taking into account the enormously destructive effects of colonialism. Et cetera, et cetera.
PS An interesting book on the failure of the state in Africa; "The Black Man's Burden: Africa and the Curse of the Nation State" by Basil Davidson.

I agree. I'd just like to add that instinctive racism is impossible ( or unadvisable ) to remove, because it's one of the defense ( and social ) mechanisms humans developed over eons.

[Scoob]

dandan said:

I think it is impossible to answer this question, given that genes and culture are impossible to separate.
For instance; take two babies, a la Plato's cave, one black and one white, and raise them up completely equally, even then there would still be the prejudices, how ever slight and subtle and repressed, of those who raised them, and these would of course have an effect.
Geneticists, scientists, whoever, nobody and nothing in our world operates without the mandate of culture, including social or scientific analysis.
In the case of the US this is especially true. There is truly no escaping the widely held prejudices (positive or negative) concerning race, and the fact that it is tied in so closely with economics is just the icing on the cake.
If, instead, one were to look at Black Africa and say; "oh look! what a load of crap. Africans/black people can't do anything, even when they have their own countries", such a person would not be taking into account the enormously destructive effects of colonialism. Et cetera, et cetera.
PS An interesting book on the failure of the state in Africa; "The Black Man's Burden: Africa and the Curse of the Nation State" by Basil Davidson.

I think appealing to past accomplishments or moral abstractions to justify oneself are basically hot air.

What have black Africans accomplished *lately*? But to an African American, it's basically irrelevant.

Just as rhetoric about conquering Vikings are pretty lame in the mouths of American white boys who are scared to drive through a black neighborhood after dark.

You want to prove your worth? Don't chat on the Internet. *Do* something. That's real. The rest is all hot air.

The human mind is a very weak system. It requires people to have lots of garbage on the brain to do things. It makes peopel feel the need to believe in fairy tales, both political and religious, just to get through the day. What a waste of time.

[dandan]

Scoob said:

I think appealing to past accomplishments or moral abstractions to justify oneself are basically hot air.

What have black Africans accomplished *lately*? But to an African American, it's basically irrelevant.

Just as rhetoric about conquering Vikings are pretty lame in the mouths of American white boys who are scared to drive through a black neighborhood after dark.

You want to prove your worth? Don't chat on the Internet. *Do* something. That's real. The rest is all hot air.

The human mind is a very weak system. It requires people to have lots of garbage on the brain to do things. It makes peopel feel the need to believe in fairy tales, both political and religious, just to get through the day. What a waste of time.

I'm afraid I don't quite catch your drift. Are you agreeing with me? Or not? It's just that you quoted my post, so I presume your comments related to it in some way. Maybe not.

[Scoob]

dandan said:

I'm afraid I don't quite catch your drift. Are you agreeing with me? Or not? It's just that you quoted my post, so I presume your comments related to it in some way. Maybe not.

I agree that behavior is the interface of genetics and environment, and that neither element can be separated really - only tested under various conditions (i.e.: subject various groups to the same environment, or subject clones to various environments).

I think to argue about "potential" of a race is a waste of time, because it is arguing counterfactuals. It might be an interesting or emotionally satisfying intellectual exercise, but it has little practical value, except perhaps as culture/intellectual war. See my previous post for what I mean by that.

[dandan]

Scoob said:

I agree that behavior is the interface of genetics and environment, and that neither element can be separated really - only tested under various conditions (i.e.: subject various groups to the same environment, or subject clones to various environments).

I think to argue about "potential" of a race is a waste of time, because it is arguing counterfactuals. It might be an interesting or emotionally satisfying intellectual exercise, but it has little practical value, except perhaps as culture/intellectual war. See my previous post for what I mean by that.

I was saying that any genetic (or other) testing would still be subject to culture. Are you saying that they can be tested? You also say that such tests are a waste of time (given that tests are used to prove arguments), a which is something I agree with.
Your previous post was pretty ambiguous, I'm afraid, and I was unable to discern an argument (which would be a waste of time? ) from amongst the rhetoric flourishes. I don't mean to insult, but look at your post again from my perspective. It is pretty loaded with non-sequitur and tautology.

[sublime]

POLL:

why do u think black people stay away from these types of forums? is their disinterest something to do with racial conditioning? do they think they will be thought of as inferior by self-righteous white people? do they themeselves feel that they are inferior in terms of intellectual/cultural development than other races?

[Melnorme]

sublime said:

POLL:

why do u think black people stay away from these types of forums? is their disinterest something to do with racial conditioning? do they think they will be thought of as inferior by self-righteous white people? do they themeselves feel that they are inferior in terms of intellectual/cultural development than other races?

I don't think they stay away. East Asians do, though.

[sublime]

Melnorme said:

I don't think they stay away. East Asians do, though.

mel, any idea why?

[Scoob]

sublime said:

mel, any idea why?

I think many East Asians think they are superior, are raised that way with clear values, and feel that.

Why would they come to argue such a thing?

Whites are not secure (in general) even with their identity since the Civil Rights era. So many whites will come to such a forum to sound out their unresolved feelings.

Blacks have their own fora for discussing racial things.

I come here to discuss things with knowledgeable and intelligent people - to get new ideas and new perspectives, and to hear people's thoughts on things, learn about their attitudes. Including people from Europe and around the world, which is great.